Shattered Kingdoms

Why wouldn't anyone be dismissive toward your claims? Please explain why you think skelly doesn't get 2nd attack and why you think wights get plague bite? Unless you hopped in a time machine from 7 years ago and are unaware, wights get curse bite now. If you can't explain the skeleton claims, just gonna assume this is a troll and put you on the ignore list.

Can we identify why necros were nerfed and what would make them more desirable to play?
Ty viper for staying on track.

Sorcerers aren't designed to be an entirely solo class, they aren't forced to select an alignment that makes them inherently untrustworthy, but more importantly the spells they have are often what cause interaction for them. Enchants, gate, shrink/enlarge, etc, all of these abilities are as useful, if not more useful, to others than to the sorcerers themselves. They encourage positive interactions with sorcerers because sorcerers can do lots of important things for you with a proverbial flick of the wrist. People often dislike going after sorcerers not because it can be difficult, but because it can directly limit your ability to receive help from them in the future.

The necromancer is basically the opposite of that, people should stay away from them because most interactions won't have a positive outcome. I'd say they are already plenty limited on that whole "ability to help others" front, so realistically we're right back to where we started, trying to decide if they have the right tools to generate the fear of them required to justify their solo nature.

Something else to keep in mind, at least some of the help files don't appear to have been updated in a way that is clear.

For example, in the animate dead help file it still says "wight - a bane to populated areas their bite spreads black death" that would seem to indicate plague, even though that is no longer the case.

I haven't claimed that skeletons do not get second attack. I stated that they should have second attack mastered. I was unaware of the change to wights getting curse instead of plague. That's a good change.

I haven't been trying to troll, yet somehow I feel trolled.

I'm all for buffing necros, but it doesn't help your case if you haven't actually rolled and tested the class before making statements like that. Also, how do you know 2nd attack isn't mastered with the skeleton 'soldier' class at GM?

I don't know that it isn't mastered. It could be that their weapon skills are low so they miss too often and it doesn't show up because I had nospam on.

Just to update everyone, I did verify that wights in-fact curse now, and updated the help file appropriately.

I'm not entirely sure it's actually a buff because curse's cast time was lowered awhile ago, and curse is probably better and easier to self-cast as one of the faster spells in the game.

If nothing else comes from this thread, at least the help file reflects the reality of the ability.

I can see how their alignment can be a big issue. Just remember though that diabolical can just as easily be a friend as an enemy. Though I guess the whimsical nature of the Necro and how/why that would fluctuate could be a deterrent, I can see that.

But, back on your point as to if they have the tools or not, how about we take a look at them: Debuff, control and animate

Debuff: They have a WIDE arrange of debuffs, more so than a shaman, and they all work quite well. I've never had much luck with them, but that may be due to lack of luck or terrible timing or what have you. As far as my general conversation goes on the matter, I'd say it's one of their strongest suits at the moment, save maybe the casting time.

Control: This is really the spell that lets a necro wander around and explore, as well as what gives them any kind of longevity in a fight. A well equipped GM control performs reasonably well PvE and the Necro has the ability to heal it. What is limiting about it is them being aggro'd on sight, or perhaps being instantly zorched by a runaway paladin. It's an inherent weakness of the undead, I'm just stating the obvious at this point. I suppose the limitation is that sorcs have a good dozen choices of really good undead to have as tanks while the Necro doesn't have as many. At least, not by my findings and I could very well be wrong here.

Animate: Is the place where I think the necro runs a ground a bit. Yes, their ability to exist in a no-magic room is really nice, but if their overall performance is underwhelming, then it only addresses half the problem. I do believe that the stats of the animate are largely based on the stats of the necro themselves which might in fact be part of the problem. Basing them off of their mental stats, level, art or perhaps leaning more heavily on the type of undead they animate as opposed to all that, might be a better way to approach it. Maybe even being able to equip all types of animate might help as well?

I like that we're back on track and having some constructive conversations

Also, thanks for changing the help file on wights Algorab!

Agreed.


Can necros still reliably control 2 undead? That used to be one of the other good benefits of control over charm. Another helpful benefit over charm is ability to heal their undead with cause spells. But definitely weak to a paladin or a holy-wording priest.


I don't remember all the specifics, but you're probably right about necro stats affecting animate stats, as well as corpse level. Stats vary between undead types also.
Zombies have the highest HP of the animates and I've seen well-built necros with some pretty beefy zombie meat shields; but maybe they should be higher. They're also still easy prey to dispels/holy/bolts/spears. They do jack for damage output. Have never tested a zombie animate with an outfit full of MR/MP, that may have an effect.
Skeletons have the best attacks of the animates; wielding shields and fast weapons, a high level animated skeleton can dish out a lot of attacks, especially wielding enchanted weapons. But same holy weakness as above, crummy HP, and when wielding weapons they can't do their special attack (I think they chill touch?).
Ghouls/Wights/Wraiths have good special attacks, especially when animated from high level corpses. Better HP than skeletons, worse HP than zombies. Worse with weapons than skeletons. But again, the same holy weakness as above.

And I know it's not ideal for everybody, but from a general playability perspective, it is a pretty nice perk for a necro to be able to heal his animates with the cause spells. Maybe more of quality of life benefit than a sheer power PvP benefit, but it's helpful nonetheless.

One of the weaknesses I've noticed about animate for the leveling necromancer, is that you can't ever animate the same corpses that you're leveling on. That can be frustrating. It would be nice if there was a way to "debuff" the corpses of your targets, in effect dropping the level down to the point that you can animate them. I know this isn't the kind of improvement that most people would want to see as far as changes go to this spell, but I think it could still prove some benefit for the lone necromancer on a leveling spree.

The challenge with animate has long been making it useful without overpowering. What buffs 1 animate can make an army of animates a nightmare. What wimps the army can over-wimp the 1. Personally, I always preferred to see animate as the necromancer's bread & butter (moreso than control). From my first day on SK, necros were described as being able to have an army of undead, and that vision has always stuck with me. The original animate spell was beyond useless. We buffed it and it became such that necros really could animate an army to wreak havoc. Limits were added to include the nominal concentration required. I don't remember where the time limit currently stands, but I'd love to kill the timer on it completely. I think it would be cool if a necromancer could build up the power of his/her animates over time. The necro who has made their way to GM, and who spends a substantial amount of time creating and equipping his army of undead really should be one of the most terrifying forces in all the realms. I think they should always have a particular weakness to paladins specifically, but they deserve a great, terrifying power in return for their innate fragility/weaknesses. Personally, I hate to see them played as a sorcerer-lite, hence my disdain for the control spell as their primary power. Maybe the opportunity to sacrifice some of their numbers for the alternative of buffing existing undead. So one necro might be able to animate 8 skeletons into his party, but another necro might use 4 corpses to buff his first 4 animates into uber animates for the same concentration cost? I think in the case of necros, you play with ideas and opportunities that are not readily available to the other classes; you make them MORE unique, rather than less, when tweaking their powerset. They will of course go through variations of power highs and lows as they compare to other classes within the game, but they are a special class with a lot of limitations, so they deserve the opportunity IMO.

Fear: Somebody mentioned this, which is probably one of their best/most useful PvP group affect spells. I've seen that single spell completely wreck invading forces in group PvP.
Edrain: Unfortunately, much of the wimping of this spell resulted from player complaints. For some reason, EXP is the one accumulated score that no player ever likes to risk losing, for any reason, be it edrain or returning to life, what have you. It does more damage than it used to, and I think it has secondary effects now, but the exp drain is a joke with the healer option as it is now. It's definitely not the source of terror that it once was.
Vamp touch: Always been one of my favorite necro spells. But has never inflicted as much damage, nor healed the necro's wounds, as much as I've always wanted it to.
Cause light/serious/critical: These are useful, especially for leveling.
Teleport/Rift: These are useful for travel and getting out of various jams a necro might get himself into.
Enchant weapon: I originally argued for them to get enchant item too. But considering they never had enchants before, I accepted this happily. And being able to equip an army of skeletons with buffed weapons has potential in the right hands.
Chill touch: Damage + debuff, it's useful. Is it useful enough?
Finger of Death: Generally best when cast as an early/opening attack. One might hope that the target is wearing a bunch of reflex runes to avoid bashes, making him more vulnerable to the FoD landing for full effect. Hopefully the necro stacked his ART.
Feeblemind: For some reason, I've never seen this used as frequently in PvP as I would assume it should be. Maybe the combat moves too fast or the casting time is too long or the resist is too easy, but a feeblemind leading an army of undead can often be enough to stop a caster from being able to concentrate on the spells that put the necro at risk.

The caveat on all my comments is that I've never been a player who GM's in a week to focus 95% on PvP. When I look at a class's skills & spells for balance, I'm generally thinking about utility along the way while leveling, various quality of life skills/spells to assist with various tasks and play time outside of PvP. And I'm always more interested in differentiating the classes more from each other, and increasing options for different kinds of play-styles, than I am in trying to streamline all character types for the commonly ascribed best practices. Personally I think there should be a cost and benefit for all things, trade-offs between strengths and weaknesses. This does, of course, make it much harder for true "balance" to ever be achieved, but I also question if 'balance' should really be as important as achieving variety and opportunity to cater to different playstyles.


Ditto that!

*Rises from the grave*

Did someone summon me?

I don't see any code changes in regards to necromancers since my last one, so here's my perspective. Some of my thoughts might be outdated, but hopefully they contribute to the discussion. Here's my list of things that necros 'can do', ordered in my view of least useful to most useful.

A) Energy Drain.
This spell is now completely useless and should be either removed or reworked from the ground up. If anything it should be renamed to "Coin Drain".

B) Debuffs
Necromancers have every single debuff. Sleep, Slow, curse, weaken, blindness, deafness, chill touch, poison, plague (Listed in order of usefulness IMO) do have their uses, and these uses are almost always in PvP. That said, typical zerg mentality in PvP usually means that casting a debuff is almost always a waste of time given that most fights are decided before they begin, or otherwise entirely based on the opening 2-3 rounds. Against a high value target you're likely to have them resist it, and even though you do cut their saves with repeated casts, it's very unlikely that the fight will last long enough for impairment to matter against a high value target. A high value target in a losing fight will escape before you get the chance to finish casting even a single debuff on them, let alone before you actually succeed on the cast itself.
In PvE, debuffs are almost always a waste of time and mana. All enemies that don't die instantly have incredibly high saves, and at least from my experience even landing a debuff on a high value target wasn't noticeable.

To summarize, having all debuffs on a necro is kind of like having fourth attack. Is it technically better than not having them? Sure. Is it legimately useful? Not really. There's almost always a better option. Sleep is an exception, which has a lot of potential in PvP and PvE.

C) Damage Spells

Damage spells for a necro are 'ok' in PvE and PvP. Finger of Death is the only 'decent' damage spell and FoD is vastly more useful for leveling than it is in PvP or end-game PvE. It is half decent to scribe onto scrolls for PvP, but it is at best equal to petrification, certainly not better in every way. Vampiric touch, and all the cause spells, are totally useless for dealing damage in any scenario.

D) Utility spells

Rift and enchant weapon are nice. Personally, I would have given them enchant armor/item and NOT given them enchant weapon. That would have allowed them to be more self-sustaining for defense, but still and require assistance for offensive power (Since ideally you have enchanted weapons for your animates/controls)

E) Dispel Magic

Castable Dispel Magic is an amazing spell for PvP and PvE. It is more useful than almost every other debuff in almost all circumstances.

F) Fear

Fear is in its own category exclusively for PvP. It's one of the few things that necromancers hold above other classes that makes them amazing in group vs group combat. It's the one thing that necromancers have that makes them truly competitive, but I don't value it as their most important class feature because it's useless outside of group vs. group PvP, and how often do you see group vs. group combat?

G) Overwhelming physical damage

This is the only thing necromancers do extremely well that has implications for many PvE and PvP scenarios. A mass army of equipped skeletons and a control or two can output more physical dps than any other class in the game. However, even this tends to be underwhelming for a couple of reasons. For PvE, it requires a lot of setup and work and any kind of aoe ability hoses you. Also, the overwhelming majority of 'difficult' PvE encounters are in locations where you cannot take undead in, and as such are forced at best to animate corpses from inside, which takes forever and is a huge nuisance, or simply not have animates at all. In addition, the low HP of animates means that any high-level boss which attacks everyone in melee with them will usually kill all skeletons in combat with them.

In PvP, a full skeleton army with a couple controls is still horrifying, but it's easily avoided with a variety of techniques, including sanctuary, invisibility, being second rank or hiding behind NPCs unless you have aoe damage or holy word at your disposal. Unfortunately with the lowered HP on the damage-dealing undead, holy word is almost guaranteed to kill all of them in one shot.


To summarize, I think if you compare the upsides and downsides playing a necro to the other similar classes, necromancers come up short even on their face, and that's if you ignore the heavy RP restrictions around them.
Sorcerer still has dispel, petrification is just as good as FoD, charms are less of a nuisance than animating an entire undead army, and sorcs have better utility with gate and all the enchants. Also, haste and giant strength are amazing.
Shaman have dispel, all the debuffs, and are much more survivable themselves, plus can heal and even tank. They can brew, whichi makes them much more desirable as utility classes.
Warlock elementals are much more reliable and less of a nuisance than undead in all challenging PvE scenarios, warlocks have higher raw damage from spells BY FAR in PvE and PvP, and warlocks have the best group healing spell in the game.

It's hard to convince someone that playing a necromancer is more fun mechanically or more effective overall than any of the above 3 classes in almost all PvE or PvP scenarios.

I can think of a few ways to make necromancers more desirable to play.
A) Allow them the ability to bring undead to end-game PvE areas. This is mostly a builder issue, and probably won't change, but it's the most sensible answer. Personally I find it silly that all teleport scripts, keyword transportations and no-magic areas screw over most magic/pet classes, necros being reduced to uselessness in those areas.
B) Increase the potency of their debuffs somehow. Personally, I would do this by giving necromancers a passive skill that increases the effectiveness of their art trains by 2 for offensive spells, or something to that effect.
C) Increase the damage of their offensive spells, or give them more utility. For example, vampiric touch would be cool if it hit an entire enemy group and healed your group based on the damage dealt. Energy drain should be reworked to both do decent damage and also apply a debuff that very briefly lowers key stats of the affected target.
D) Give them enchant armor/item and remove enchant weapon. They should have to work with friendly hellions or sorcerers to get enchanted weapons, and hellions in particular should be willing to work with them to get enchants on their armor if they want them.

So, just to put this out there. Thuban and I agree Necromancers could use a few tweaks to improve them. I warn Dulrik's time is limited, but we're working on trying to put together a small package of balance tweaks to help them out in some easy to address ways.

As part of that, some minor buffs were made to some of the signature controls recently, nothing huge, but definitely brought more in-line with modern values in some cases.