Shattered Kingdoms

Sorcs have seen a lot of very potent nerfs since Ealuriel, both when I played Antiira and after. Big ones include Lathron being lowered in strength, charmed NPCs having their charisma and intelligence lowered, scrolls no longer having a chance at guaranteed success which directly affects the usefulness of double petrification scrolls, all magical devices requiring concentration, which means that if you bring two charms you can't do anything else including gate, and their natural enemies of swashbucklers and warlocks getting buffed. With the multiple buffs to magma and removal of many RE-granting items, the majority of sorcs are also subject to getting 1 or 2 shotted by magma spray with their low HP pool. Also, the triple Fod and triple harm scrolls aren't able to be solo gathered anymore.

The only buff that sorcs got in that timeframe was an indirect one in that saves can no longer be enchanted on armor. Even though that change obviously limited everyone's enchantments, it was definitely a net positive for sorcs who have access to the only two instant I-win spells in the game (charm and petrification). However, that change by no means makes up for the hits they took in those other areas.

I'm not saying sorcs are bad, but they're most certainly much weaker than they were back in Ealuriel's day or Antiira's day for those reasons, and as such they don't deserve a spot at the top tier list of the current meta. My deep-elf sorc used to be able to carry a perma-sanc'ed hasted Lathron and another GM barbarian while gating around with a gate wand, and then in combat use the triple FoD/triple harm scroll in addition to double petrify scrolls, and then regather those items solo immediately afterwards. I could also charm waish and taunt people as a second charm to help keep enemies in the room. You simply can't do that anymore.

Great discussion. Keep it coming. I find it more useful to hear why people believe (or don't believe) a class warrants a slot than just seeing a list.

Sorry if this was unclear, but I meant Wudan and the harlequin sorc Dakken. Changes in the last few years? Sorcerers are immune to voodoo now. They used to be completely contained by it.

Sorcs can solo gank any class, travel freely, have nothing to fear from a swashbuckler (etherealform), and have nothing to fear from a warlock (no way to hold down a sorc, can't even just open up on them with c 'magma' because they have images). You can scribe double petrify easily on high level scrolls and insta-kill the majority of the mud.

Two charmed NPCs still beat any warrior except for a swashbuckler who can kip/spam quaff. Wudan was 2 years ago, Dakken was 1 year ago. They have loads of tactics able to be exploited by a veteran, from dragging NPCs ethereal, to summoning, to polymorphed solo recite attempts, to risk-free ethereal dispelling that can throw groups into disarray.

If etherealform were wimped substantially it would put sorcerers into the middle of the fray. Right now they are absurd and a top sorc player still dominates the mud, locates bodyparts to gank you, and is immune to ganks by locating for potions of true sight.

Wudan didn't accomplish much besides being extremely annoying because he steadfastly refused to leave etherealform.

In addition, while I wasn't around for Dakken, I'm pretty sure that the difference between Ealuriel's presence (pre-nerfs) in the PK scene and Dakken's presence (post-nerf) in the PK scene was notably different. It doesn't take much searching to realize the stark difference in logs between the two. You can argue that's mostly due to less activity in Dakken's time compared to Ealuriel, but the only log I know of where Dakken even lands a kill is a 7v5 ambush.

I'm not saying Dakken wasn't successful in PK, by the way. I'm just saying that he was most certainly not as successful or scary as Ealuriel, nor was Wudan for different reasons.

Well, I disagree. I think voodoo immunity made sorcerers far more viable in pvp. Sorcerers still have nothing to fear except true seeing rogues and everyone else has reason to fear them, if only for two charms entering your room and attacking you while the sorc chills there immune.

It is definitely mercenaries in the top slot, but sorcerers are right behind them nipping at their heels.

A sorcerer having two I-win spells, petrification and charm person, that use different saving throws, willpower and fortitude, is clutch. The fact that reflex is actually a useful saving throw now, since it protects against getting knocked prone, only makes it much more likely that petrification or charm person will work in PK.

God Tier

1. Mercenary
2. Sorcerer
3. Barbarian

Extremely Good

4. Warlock
5. Shaman

Meh

6. Necromancer
7. Scout
8. Priest
9. Paladin
10. Hellion

Someone should have told me not to roll these classes - thanks Obama

11. Swashbuckler
12. Rogue
13. Bard

Would you really put swashies at the very bottom given that taunt is the only way to reliably secure kills now? I realize that they're not solo powerhouses, but having a swashie as a 2nd or 3rd person in a group is much scarier than just having another merc or barb.

I would argue that in only melee combat, swashie is (or at least was, until this enhanced damage change) the top dog. I had a swashie who would only get beat in melee every few weeks. Group PvP is entirely different

Would it be remotely interesting to anyone here to know the classes of the top three characters with the highest PvP kill count for the past two years? I can provide that data if anyone is interested.

I'd like to see it just because I find that sort of stuff interesting, but it'd be a stretch to make any firm conclusions on relative strength compared to that, considering how there are a -lot- of factors that go into the killcount for a class over a time period like popularity, number of vet players playing the class, number of inexperienced people giving up easier kills, etc.