Lag on herbs / vials

Superman · **Joined:** Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:05 pm **Posts:** 152

Also, from a gameplay and balance perspective, mistletoe weighs like 1/10 what a heal vial does. Possibly way less than 1/10 too, depending on vials used.

Opey · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:54 pm

StylesP wrote:

Also, from a gameplay and balance perspective, mistletoe weighs like 1/10 what a heal vial does. Possibly way less than 1/10 too, depending on vials used.

I don't know that this is true. I'm not saying that it isn't, but I'd like to test it before I blindly believe it to be true.

Styles · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:01 pm

Styles wrote:

ninja_ardith wrote:

That's also how much a standard heal vial heals an elf mercenary with max con, and 15 hp trains. Roughly 12%, and I don't think I have massive hps either. I also don't have the bonus of being virtually immune to all spells if I die and get all of my stuff junked.

A barbarian will heal less from a weak healing vial than an elf mercenary. Probably 11%. What does a strong healing vial do?

The only log I can find where a GM barbarian quaffs a strong heal shows the character regaining 18%. Note that's just a strong heal, not an overpowered one.

So, from the examples we've gotten in this thread:

Mistletoe for a MR griffon barbarian: 13%
Weak heal vial for a barbarian: 11%
Double weak heal vial for a barbarian: 22%
Strong heal vial for a barbarian: 18%
Strong double heal vial for a barbarian: 36%
Overpowered heal vial for a barbarian: ???

Now the question of speed remains. Exactly how many mistletoe can be eaten in the same duration as one potion can be quaffed?

Opey · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:03 pm

2 mistletoe in between rounds.

Superman · **Joined:** Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:05 pm **Posts:** 152

Styles wrote:

ninja_ardith wrote:

That's also how much a standard heal vial heals an elf mercenary with max con, and 15 hp trains. Roughly 12%, and I don't think I have massive hps either. I also don't have the bonus of being virtually immune to all spells if I die and get all of my stuff junked.

A barbarian will heal less from a weak healing vial than an elf mercenary. Probably 11%. What does a strong healing vial do?

The only log I can find where a GM barbarian quaffs a strong heal shows the character regaining 18%. Note that's just a strong heal, not an overpowered one.

So, from the examples we've gotten in this thread:

Mistletoe for a MR griffon barbarian: 13%
Weak heal vial for a barbarian: 11%
Double weak heal vial for a barbarian: 22%
Strong heal vial for a barbarian: 18%
Strong double heal vial for a barbarian: 36%
Overpowered heal vial for a barbarian: ???

Now the question of speed remains. Exactly how many mistletoe can be eaten in the same duration as one potion can be quaffed?

This speaks volumes, as overpowered is not even a vial strength.

Also 36% is pretty funny, and after how much you ragged on Edoras...where are the logs?

This isn't accounting for fatigue and reduced HP on normal warriors either, a problem MR barbs never have to worry about.

Styles · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:26 pm

Opey wrote:

2 mistletoe in between rounds.

Ok, so if you heal 13%/mistletoe then that's 26%/round. A barbarian using the weakest heal option available (weak vials of single heal) will heal 11% (of a larger HP pool). A double weak heal would heal 22%. That probably equates to about the same number of HP per round getting healed, given the latter's larger HP pool. Seeing as how the standard barbarian has the option to choose more powerful healing vials, this doesn't seem outrageously unbalanced. The only problem here is that your guy is a griffon, and a human could presumably heal a good deal more since he has access to more equipment slots. A human MR barbarian could probably keep pace with a human barbarian quaffing double strong heal vials. Perhaps that is unbalanced.

If you reduced the heal rate for MR by about 25% across the board, that would probably solve this issue. It would mean that eating two herbs a round would drop the griffon barbarian in question to a healing rate in HP/round roughly equal to strong vials of heal, but less than weak double heals, and much less than strong double heals. It would also make them heal less from everything else, not just the mistletoe, which would be a definite wimp, but fine in light of the recent changes to the enchantment system. As a bonus, this wouldn't require lag to be added to something that scouts also use. It's bad enough they have tame lag. Do they really need eat lag on top of that?

Anyway, those are the hard numbers based on the available data. I don't really care about the ancillary arguments about prep time and cost. Brewing is no fun and herb farming is also no fun. Either way, someone has to do some boring grinding to get melee guys healing consumables. Maybe brewing is worse, but the barbarian is also expending consumables at double the rate.

Opey · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:28 pm

StylesP wrote:

Also, from a gameplay and balance perspective, mistletoe weighs like 1/10 what a heal vial does. Possibly way less than 1/10 too, depending on vials used.

Code:

 oOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOo
 o [Scores] Hoch, - Commander of Morea, Righteous Fury                       o
 o===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===o
 o    Status: Grand Master(1)   Race: Griffon          Class: Barbarian      o
 o   Kingdom: Zhenshi          Cabal: Hammer of Light (Leader)               o
 o===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===o
 o     Coins: 1 obsidian, 7 platinum, 3 gold, 8 silver, 6 copper             o
 o  Carrying: 2/21 items                    Load: 170.5/475.0 pounds         o
 o===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===o
 o    Health: Excellent       Mental: Pulsating     Physical: Fresh          o
 o Attribute points: 0        Wimpy:  25 percent    Mode: Kill/aggressive    o
 o===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===o
 o You are standing.                                                         o
 o You have just begun your journey to the next level.                       o
 o You have played 154 hour(s) so far.                                       o
 oOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOo

[100] [100] [100] Ancient Darkness - 12/1248 - 6am
buy 5
You buy a delicate crystal vial.
You pay 2 gold, 1 silver, 7 copper in sales tax.
Gillian says to you 'Here is 3 gold, 7 silver, 5 copper in change.'
Gillian exclaims 'Thank you!'

[100] [100] [100] Ancient Darkness - 12/1248 - 6am
sco

 oOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOo
 o [Scores] Hoch, - Commander of Morea, Righteous Fury                       o
 o===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===o
 o    Status: Grand Master(1)   Race: Griffon          Class: Barbarian      o
 o   Kingdom: Zhenshi          Cabal: Hammer of Light (Leader)               o
 o===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===o
 o     Coins: 1 obsidian, 2 platinum, 8 gold, 2 silver                       o
 o  Carrying: 3/21 items                    Load: 170.9/475.0 pounds         o
 o===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===o
 o    Health: Excellent       Mental: Pulsating     Physical: Fresh          o
 o Attribute points: 0        Wimpy:  25 percent    Mode: Kill/aggressive    o
 o===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===o
 o You are standing.                                                         o
 o You have just begun your journey to the next level.                       o
 o You have played 154 hour(s) so far.                                       o
 oOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOo

[100] [100] [100] Ancient Darkness - 12/1248 - 6am
TICK TIMER!
get mist bag
drop mist
You get a small green branch covered in red berries from the famed "Bottomless Bag".

[100] [100] [100] Ancient Darkness - 12/1248 - 7am
You drop a small green branch covered in red berries.

[100] [100] [100] Ancient Darkness - 12/1248 - 7am
sco

 oOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOo
 o [Scores] Hoch, - Commander of Morea, Righteous Fury                       o
 o===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===o
 o    Status: Grand Master(1)   Race: Griffon          Class: Barbarian      o
 o   Kingdom: Zhenshi          Cabal: Hammer of Light (Leader)               o
 o===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===o
 o     Coins: 1 obsidian, 2 platinum, 8 gold, 2 silver                       o
 o  Carrying: 3/21 items                    Load: 170.4/475.0 pounds         o
 o===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===o
 o    Health: Excellent       Mental: Pulsating     Physical: Fresh          o
 o Attribute points: 0        Wimpy:  25 percent    Mode: Kill/aggressive    o
 o===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===o
 o You are standing.                                                         o
 o You have just begun your journey to the next level.                       o
 o You have played 154 hour(s) so far.                                       o
 oOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOo

I'm not sure I believe your claim about the difference between herb weight and vial weight.

Opey · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:31 pm

One thing to keep in mind is that an MR character can heal most effectively in only one way: eat mistletoe (Well, two if there is a bard. You can cast spells at them, but that is a gross waste of mana and not efficient, at all). A non-MR character can heal with a casted heal spell or a heal potion. A non-MR character can use the healer NPC to heal themselves.

It is far easier, obviously, to heal a non-MR character.

ninja_ardith · **Joined:** Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:21 pm **Posts:** 4452

Stop buying [REDACTED] in Taslamar, douchebag.

Edoras · **Posted:** Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:01 am

Styles wrote:

Edoras wrote:

I think that spamming mistletoe is overpowered because it can heal you for more than quaffing double heals does for a normal barbarian/mercenary

Is that actually true? Keep in mind that these percentages are skewed by how the MR barbarian had to spend trains on MR which normal barbarians generally spend on HP. So even if the MR barbarian is healing the same percentage, he is not healing the same number of HP. How much does a weak double-heal heal for a normal barbarian? How much does a strong double-heal heal for a normal barbarian? Also, exactly how many mistletoe can be eaten per heal potion quaffed? How much

I already answered all of your questions, Glenn Beck. In fact I answered them in the same post you quoted here and then asked the question.

Edoras wrote:

I think that spamming mistletoe is overpowered because it can heal you for more than quaffing double heals does for a normal barbarian/mercenary, and obtaining mistletoe is a lot easier than obtaining double healing vials. MR barbarians should not get to have their cake and eat it too. I think the lag on eat should be the same as the lag on vials, whereas currently it seems to be about half that. Obviously, the mistletoe herb wasn't intended to be utilized for this purpose.

It takes about 2/3 of a round to quaff a vial. It takes about 1/3 of a round lag to eat something. This is evidenced by the fact that the very first log I posted in this thread is a log of Qahz eating 3 mistletoe in between a single combat round. If you start quaffing vials right after a combat round ends, you can quaff 2 vials and the lag carries some into the next round. If you start eating mistletoe right after a combat round ends, you can eat 3 and the lag carries some into the next round.

In the log I posted, eating a single mistletoe healed for 16%. Ardith has said that his elf mercenary (bad CON) with a lot of HP trains heals about 12% from a single healing vial. His elf merc doesn't have as much HP as a 4 HP trained max CON barbarian, so let's assume for these purposes that they're equal.

So, if I can eat 3 mistletoe for a total of 48% HP healing in between a round, and quaff 2 double heals for 48% healing a round, they end up exactly equal. Honestly I still feel that's probably skewed in that I think the lag on eat is less than 66% that of quaff. It's already been pointed out how absurd it is to compare double heal vials to mistletoe, however, so I'll go ahead and leave it at that.

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Lag on herbs / vials

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