Lag on herbs / vials

ninja_ardith · **Joined:** Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:21 pm **Posts:** 4452

Styles wrote:

StylesP wrote:

Eat needs more lag, plain and simple. How is that a penalty for scouts, when they aren't ever the ones spam eating things? Nice misdirect attempt, though, I guess. Eat should have the same lag as quaff. Not sure why this is even up for debate. Bam, problem solved, and it's not a "wimp" to anyone. It's balance.

I don't understand how you can't see that my solution is better. My way in no way hurts scouts and makes MR barbarians expend more resources to get the same amount of healing. If you can eat 3 mistletoe per round that each give 10% or 2 mistletoe per round that each get 15%, then what's the difference in terms of healing rates? This is basic arithmetic, man, and my solution is a harder wimp to MR barbarians than introducing eat lag is. Think about it.

Of course, all of this is if the facts even support the case that mistletoe is overpowered compared to quaffing heals. We just need to know the numbers. If you would like to make a meaningful contribution, you could start supplying some actual facts.

Why can't you just accept the fact that it's overpowering?

Superman · **Joined:** Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:05 pm **Posts:** 152

Styles wrote:

StylesP wrote:

Eat needs more lag, plain and simple. How is that a penalty for scouts, when they aren't ever the ones spam eating things? Nice misdirect attempt, though, I guess. Eat should have the same lag as quaff. Not sure why this is even up for debate. Bam, problem solved, and it's not a "wimp" to anyone. It's balance.

I don't understand how you can't see that my solution is better. My way in no way hurts scouts and makes MR barbarians expend more resources to get the same amount of healing. If you can eat 3 mistletoe per round that each give 10% or 2 mistletoe per round that each get 15%, then what's the difference in terms of healing rates? This is basic arithmetic, man, and my solution is a harder wimp to MR barbarians than introducing eat lag is. Think about it.

Of course, all of this is if the facts even support the case that mistletoe is overpowered compared to quaffing heals. We just need to know the numbers. If you would like to make a meaningful contribution, you could start supplying some actual facts.

You are also ignoring the lag aspect. Currently (and sorry, this isn't up for debate, get over it), a mistletoe heals an MR barb more than a heal vial heals anyone else (which is harder to get, and actually costs IC money to get). So you can eat mistletoe in between rounds with far less fear of being too lagged to bash/disarm/etc while still spam healing yourself in thr process.

Opey · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:25 pm

I don't think it is overpowered. But, like I said, I am probably biased. I cannot honestly say that I would feel the same way if I was on the opposite side of things, going against an MR barbarian.

I will say that I have nothing else but mistletoe as far as buffs and potions go. It is not easy to heal an MR barbarian. That is not to say that I think it SHOULD be easy to heal them. I understand that I've traded my buffs for magical resistance. That being said, I understood going into it that the more MR I was to acquire, the more healing I would get from a resisted spell. With that idea in mind, an MR barbarian can prioritize their gear.

I do not agree with you that mistletoe is easy to get in stacks of 100s. I have never had 100 mistletoe herbs at any one time. The most I've ever had with me was 79. I went through those in about 3 hours. During that time I fought about 3-4 battles with PC characters and a couple of PvE encounters. It is very easy to dwindle your stack of healing mistletoe herbs very quickly. That is why I tried to acquire such a large stash. I tried to also stay out of PVP while I was building up my stash. Do you have any idea how long it took me to build that stash up? More than a week, I'll tell you that. I'm sure it can be done faster and more efficiently by someone who might be considered a more skilled player, but that is how long it took me.

How long do you think it would take to get 100 mistletoe herbs if all you did was walk around a forest? I'm curious. It seems to me that doing something like that is similar to willingly putting your character in jail. In other words, if that is what you are trying to do (acquire a large stash of mistletoe), you can't go out and do anything else. You are paying an opportunity cost.

That being said, I can appreciate the difficulty of brewing up double heals. Sure, it is expensive and time consuming in it's own right. I'm not debating that. I am saying that the question of herb spamming being overpowered is debatable, and not such an obviously overpowered situation.

I've also never said that a mistletoe herb SHOULD heal someone for the same amount as a heal vial.

Styles · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:26 pm

StylesP wrote:

Styles wrote:

StylesP wrote:

Eat needs more lag, plain and simple. How is that a penalty for scouts, when they aren't ever the ones spam eating things? Nice misdirect attempt, though, I guess. Eat should have the same lag as quaff. Not sure why this is even up for debate. Bam, problem solved, and it's not a "wimp" to anyone. It's balance.

I don't understand how you can't see that my solution is better. My way in no way hurts scouts and makes MR barbarians expend more resources to get the same amount of healing. If you can eat 3 mistletoe per round that each give 10% or 2 mistletoe per round that each get 15%, then what's the difference in terms of healing rates? This is basic arithmetic, man, and my solution is a harder wimp to MR barbarians than introducing eat lag is. Think about it.

Of course, all of this is if the facts even support the case that mistletoe is overpowered compared to quaffing heals. We just need to know the numbers. If you would like to make a meaningful contribution, you could start supplying some actual facts.

You are also ignoring the lag aspect. Currently, a mistletoe heals an MR barb more than a heal vial heals anyone else (which is harder to get, and actually costs IC money to get). So you can eat mistletoe in between rounds with far less fear of being too lagged to bash/disarm/etc while still spam healing yourself in thr process.

I think you just can't follow the conversation. Edoras made a statement. I questioned whether it was factual. My proposition is that if eating mistletoe is found to be overpowered that the appropriate solution is not to add lag to eating herbs, but to reduce the healing power granted by mistletoe. This just shouldn't be this complicated, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that StylesP was created to troll Styles.

ninja_ardith · **Joined:** Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:21 pm **Posts:** 4452

I seem to recall mistletoe being rather easy to collect as a scout.

Quote:

Life 69 Mana 17 Move 82
quaff heal
You quaff a blown-glass bottle of heal.
A warm feeling fills your body.

Life 81 Mana 17 Move 82

That's also how much a standard heal vial heals an elf mercenary with max con, and 15 hp trains. Roughly 12%, and I don't think I have massive hps either. I also don't have the bonus of being virtually immune to all spells if I die and get all of my stuff junked.

Opey · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:34 pm

I can confirm that mistletoe heals me for 13%. I have 4 hp trains and max constitution (23, for a griffon).

Let me also clarify: I'm not saying mistletoe is hard to get. I'm saying that getting a stash of 100 takes a long time. I typically have to pay a scout to do this for me because I won't mudsex them for it.

Superman · **Joined:** Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:05 pm **Posts:** 152

Herbing can literally be done by rolling your face around on the keyboard. A scout can walk back and forth in 'forest' rooms indefinitely due to endurance + path finding. Meaning all you have to do is camo (to avoid any pesky tells) hit "e;w;e;w;e;w;e;w;e;w;put all.herb backpack" fifty times, then tab out of the window for five minutes. Then tab back, hit the command fifty more times, go back to doing whatever.

And "I never had 100, I only had 79!" Really. You can't even herb yourself, but you had SEVENTY NINE? Clearly they are really, really, really hard to get.

The fact that you have so many that you are willing to spam eat them in PvE speaks volumes. I (and from what I've seen, numerous other people) do everything in our power to avoid quaffing even 1-2 heal vials in PvE, because it is such a waste, and such a hassle to get heal vials.

Honestly, I think the MR healing should be changed so that it only converts cast spells to HP. The downside to being -immune to all magic- with no effort is that it's supposed to be hard to heal you. Not way easier.

Styles · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:37 pm

ninja_ardith wrote:

That's also how much a standard heal vial heals an elf mercenary with max con, and 15 hp trains. Roughly 12%, and I don't think I have massive hps either. I also don't have the bonus of being virtually immune to all spells if I die and get all of my stuff junked.

A barbarian will heal less from a weak healing vial than an elf mercenary. Probably 11%. What does a strong healing vial do?

Superman · **Joined:** Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:05 pm **Posts:** 152

Styles wrote:

ninja_ardith wrote:

That's also how much a standard heal vial heals an elf mercenary with max con, and 15 hp trains. Roughly 12%, and I don't think I have massive hps either. I also don't have the bonus of being virtually immune to all spells if I die and get all of my stuff junked.

A barbarian will heal less from a weak healing vial than an elf mercenary. Probably 11%. What does a strong healing vial do?

Why do you keep trying to compare a mistletoe to something that is infinitely harder to get? Strong vials are unique. And we just had a guy say he had 79 mistletoe.

I'm not sure which is worse, saying that mistletoe should be on par with double heals (which requires you to succed on let's say you probably fail 1/5 initial brews. And then average 1/4 singles to doubles. So out of every 5 vials you buy, you get one double heal vial. By the way, that's a very optimistic outlook on your brewing success. Real Talk.) or trying to compare something that is unique to something that somebody can get in quantities of 79.

C'mon man.

Opey · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:44 pm

I disagree with you that it is "with no effort." I am giving up 10 hp trains for 10 MR trains.

Let's please have a rational discussion here. This doesn't need to turn into an attack on Opey just because I have a different opinion. I've said that I play an MR barbarian and am therefore biased. I'm willing to admit that. I still think it is okay for me to join in on the debate and have an opinion.

I don't have the herbalism skill. That means I either have to:

- cheat and roll a scout character, then "equipment transfer" the herbs to my main character
- pay a scout to do it
- convince someone to give them to me for free
- kill someone and take theirs

I'm not willing to do the first one. The second one can get very expensive. Vials are also expensive, but I seem to need more herbs than the average warrior needs vials because of my lack of armor (due to being a griffon) and my lack of buffs (due to being MR). Convincing someone to give them up to me for free is not easy, but certainly doable. And, finally, killing someone to take theirs is fun but usually costs me herbs.

79 mistletoe herbs is certainly a large stash. I did not find it easy to acquire that stash. I also blew through it quite quickly. I'm not telling you that I blow through them during PvE without a second thought. I have a bit of a grimace on my face when I do it, but I'd rather eat 10 mistletoe than die.

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Lag on herbs / vials

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