Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate

ninja_ardith · **Joined:** Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:21 pm **Posts:** 4452

Styles wrote:

On the subject of necromancer nerfing, I do think those shadowy wights should get a nerf. The best controls should not come from the necromancer safehouse; they should come from the Necropolis, or other places that require a little more work to get. I also feel the same way about sorcerer charms. The best charms should be more challenging to get. It shouldn't just be a case of summoning and charming some GM NPC. That's junk. If you're going to steamroll people with NPCs, you should have to work A LITTLE to get those NPCs. Losquaty and Lathron, those wights, etc. could get nerfed down in level by about 10%. Nothing extreme, just enough to give people some incentive to do a little work to find better stuff. Some tough charms could be placed in more remote locations and, if need be, some new controls could be added to the Necropolis, or some of the existing options could be ever-so-slightly improved.

Oh shut up already.

Galactus · **Joined:** Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:21 pm **Posts:** 906

Edoras wrote:

Who do you play again? I am oh so curious why you are so intent on nerfing necros.

he plays your mother, of course! /end sarcasm

Still very curious on to see about if you can actually find new tactics to use instead of o all bas;zap self.

ninja_ardith · **Joined:** Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:21 pm **Posts:** 4452

Maybe the reason you have such troubles playing a necromancer, Edoras is that you're playing the wrong class.

Quote:

a glass vial with a nine-pointed star of spirit aura carried by a repugnant male sprite.
a blown-glass bottle of spirit aura carried by a repugnant male sprite.
a clear vial of spirit aura carried by a repugnant male sprite.
A delicate red bottle of spirit aura carried by a repugnant male sprite.
a black vial of spirit aura carried by a repugnant male sprite.
a gold vial of spirit aura carried by a repugnant male sprite.
a blown-glass bottle of spirit aura carried by a repugnant male sprite.
a blown-glass bottle of spirit aura carried by a repugnant male sprite.
a blown-glass bottle of spirit aura carried by a repugnant male sprite.
a glass vial with a nine-pointed star of spirit aura carried by a repugnant male sprite.
a blown-glass bottle of spirit aura carried by a repugnant male sprite.
A stoppered vial of spirit aura carried by a repugnant male sprite.
a blown-glass bottle of spirit aura carried by a repugnant male sprite.
A stoppered vial of spirit aura carried by a repugnant male sprite.
a ruby vial of spirit aura carried by a repugnant male sprite.
a ruby vial of spirit aura carried by a repugnant male sprite.
a blown-glass bottle of spirit aura carried by a repugnant male sprite.

Styles · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:01 pm

Edoras wrote:

Who do you play again? I am oh so curious why you are so intent on nerfing necros.

I'm trying to wimp sorcerers too now. You know I'm right! It would be better to have the toughest controls/charms not be so easy to get. I don't see what the big deal about dropping the easy-to-get ones down in level by about 10%. I would say that I'm all about wimping NPC wars in general, but I do think scout tames could use love.

jerinx · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:34 pm

Styles wrote:

Edoras wrote:

Styles, you have never posted a single statement of fact, only conjecture.

It is a fact that you have repeatedly cited an example of your gnome mercenary beating a necromancer 1 on 1 but that you have not provided a log for this encounter for us to look at. So, there's one factual statement that I have made. I won't bother reiterating the dozens of others.

The real cute thing is that the only way he manages to survive is by utilizing a cabal-spell to avoid the implications of bash, and in both cases the necromancer majorly messed up. Everyone hails the gnome as able to solo necros, but he had every spell-up in the game and couldn't be bashed. Even in one log he had a second PC with him. Any class - including paladins and swashbucklers - could stand enough to even FLEE from a 1v1 with a necro, and getting a kill had infinitesimal odds - given immunity to bash and 30 heal vials. He speaks very circumstantially... and still does not comprehend what balance in a game means.

His brother continually defending him is also rather amusing. The most BOG one'll get in in 2 rounds is 3, if they're lucky, 3 will knock an undead out. Prior to this change, a paladin had to cast 1 and then flee - no pet could stand up to the onslaught. Most times, the pet would die before the cast of BoG let alone HW, and leave the paladin vulnerable to the 8(!)+ bash attempts. This is not balance. Especially when, if a paladin had a PC tank, it was very potentially likely if that tank was not in a certain cabal, it would be pretty close to dead after the first HW. When a paladin even wanted to forsake any semblance of decency or RP to try to kill a necro, he still got reamed generally.

The fact that people are complaining that the old kind of necro is balanced is absolutely laughable. It took a lightie-only cabal to give any player a remote chance of a 1v1 against a necro. Now, people are complaining a necro will have trouble with - and can still very potentially wreck - 2+ PCs.

Edoras, respectfully, get over yourself. You said you felt unwelcomed, and it's not entirely unnoticed from the bystander's POV. This is the gameplay section, where we put on the big boy pants to talk constructively, generally. You've failed to be constructive at every opportunity.

Go play your character, or delete it. Right now, you're offering anecdote and conjecture that has no empirical proof whatsoever, and until you play your character, you won't be picking any up.

Edoras · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:06 pm

jerinx wrote:

The most BOG one'll get in in 2 rounds is 3, if they're lucky, 3 will knock an undead out.

When you say things like I really wonder if you actually played a paladin or if that was someone else. This is the silliest statement I've read coming from the player of a paladin. Do you know why?

jerinx wrote:

The fact that people are complaining that the old kind of necro is balanced is absolutely laughable. It took a lightie-only cabal to give any player a remote chance of a 1v1 against a necro.

Or someone with access to ranged damage, or someone from one of 2 other cabals with room affect spells, or someone from one of the the 3 tribunals with access to holy word through guard NPCs. I rolled a centaur warlock a while ago, and even before I joined a faction I killed some necro who constantly attacked Exile whenever she was logged in. After I joined the Keepers it was extremely easy to not only kill, but jail her: And that was back when there was no limit on the number of wraiths. I know that you apparently think that PvP doesn't count if you win fights without even needing to risk anything, but it turns out that if you engage a necro intelligently he's pretty easy to deal with. You of all people have no excuse for not knowing that, but instead, your tactic of choice against a full necro army was to tag the necro with BoG... and then to continue spamming BoG 12 more times after that.

So maybe it isn't surprising that you think necros were OP, because while my undead in that engagement were busy killing Baltus and then Zonin over the course of 4 combat rounds, you thought it wise to throw 5 bolts of glory my way, instead of bolting my undead or casting holy word once I got tagged... and then to throw 10 more bolts my way.

Quote:

[HP: 61%] [ME: 77%] [PE:100%]
>
Ithorim utters the words, 'barh ay ohifl'.
Ithorim gestures and a bolt of glory bursts forth at you!
You cringe in terror from Ithorim's bolt of glory!
A fire elemental's flaming bite starts a shadowy wight's chest on fire.
A fire elemental's flaming bite starts to melt a shadowy wight's chest.
A fire elemental's flaming bite starts to melt a shadowy wight's head.
An angelic female elf's punch at a shadowy wight's head is deflected by ivory hide.
A fire elemental dodges a wraith's attack.
A fire elemental is unaffected by a wraith's cleave!
A fire elemental is unaffected by a wraith's cleave!
A fire elemental is unaffected by a wraith's cleave!
A fire elemental dodges a wraith's attack.
An angelic female elf's punch at a shadowy wight's chest is deflected by ivory hide.
A Taslamaran courser strikes suddenly, biting at a shadowy wight's chest! Some GUTS fall!
Ithorim strikes suddenly, cleaving at a shadowy wight's chest! Some GUTS fall!
A shadowy wight dodges Ithorim's attack.
A fire elemental doubles over as it is struck by a shadowy wight's thrashing tail!
A shadowy wight slashes a fire elemental's chest, causing a gaping wound!
A shadowy wight slashes a fire elemental's stomach. Boy does BLOOD look red!
A shadowy wight slashes at a fire elemental's stomach. ENTRAILS fall to the ground!
A shadowy wight slashes at a fire elemental's right arm, tearing open a big bleeding wound!

[HP: 46%] [ME: 77%] [PE:100%]
>
zap self
You zap a wand of spinning vortices.
You step into the Ethereal Plane, slipping out of the group formation.
You turn ethereal.
Ithorim's spell passes ineffectually through you.

[HP: 46%] [ME: 77%] [PE:100%]
>
Ithorim's spell passes ineffectually through you.

[HP: 46%] [ME: 77%] [PE:100%]
>
Delaney's spell passes ineffectually through you.
Ithorim's spell passes ineffectually through you.

[HP: 46%] [ME: 77%] [PE:100%]
>
Delaney's spell passes ineffectually through you.
Ithorim's spell passes ineffectually through you.

[HP: 46%] [ME: 77%] [PE:100%]
>
Ithorim's spell passes ineffectually through you.

[HP: 46%] [ME: 77%] [PE:100%]
>
Ithorim's spell passes ineffectually through you.

[HP: 46%] [ME: 77%] [PE:100%]
>
Ithorim's spell passes ineffectually through you.

Later, you would prove again how overpowered necros were by failing in the Deeps to use the follow command when you brought a holy word brigade after me. In both of these battles, the onus fell on you to win them, and you simply failed to. Had you executed a proper plan, there is nothing I would have been able to do to win even if I played the engagements perfectly.

Styles · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:30 pm

Edoras wrote:

Later, you would prove again how overpowered necros were by failing in the Deeps to use the follow command when you brought a holy word brigade after me. In both of these battles, the onus fell on you to win them, and you simply failed to. Had you executed a proper plan, there is nothing I would have been able to do to win even if I played the engagements perfectly.

Yes, a proper plan executed by a GROUP OF PCs could have beaten your necromancer in both events. That's great to know, if not completely irrelevant.

ninja_ardith · **Joined:** Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:21 pm **Posts:** 4452

Edoras wrote:

jerinx wrote:

The most BOG one'll get in in 2 rounds is 3, if they're lucky, 3 will knock an undead out.

When you say things like I really wonder if you actually played a paladin or if that was someone else. This is the silliest statement I've read coming from the player of a paladin. Do you know why?

jerinx wrote:

The fact that people are complaining that the old kind of necro is balanced is absolutely laughable. It took a lightie-only cabal to give any player a remote chance of a 1v1 against a necro.

Or someone with access to ranged damage, or someone from one of 2 other cabals with room affect spells, or someone from one of the the 3 tribunals with access to holy word through guard NPCs. I rolled a centaur warlock a while ago, and even before I joined a faction I killed some necro who constantly attacked Exile whenever she was logged in. After I joined the Keepers it was extremely easy to not only kill, but jail her: And that was back when there was no limit on the number of wraiths. I know that you apparently think that PvP doesn't count if you win fights without even needing to risk anything, but it turns out that if you engage a necro intelligently he's pretty easy to deal with. You of all people have no excuse for not knowing that, but instead, your tactic of choice against a full necro army was to tag the necro with BoG... and then to continue spamming BoG 12 more times after that.

So maybe it isn't surprising that you think necros were OP, because while my undead in that engagement were busy killing Baltus and then Zonin over the course of 4 combat rounds, you thought it wise to throw 5 bolts of glory my way, instead of bolting my undead or casting holy word once I got tagged... and then to throw 10 more bolts my way.

Quote:

[HP: 61%] [ME: 77%] [PE:100%]
>
Ithorim utters the words, 'barh ay ohifl'.
Ithorim gestures and a bolt of glory bursts forth at you!
You cringe in terror from Ithorim's bolt of glory!
A fire elemental's flaming bite starts a shadowy wight's chest on fire.
A fire elemental's flaming bite starts to melt a shadowy wight's chest.
A fire elemental's flaming bite starts to melt a shadowy wight's head.
An angelic female elf's punch at a shadowy wight's head is deflected by ivory hide.
A fire elemental dodges a wraith's attack.
A fire elemental is unaffected by a wraith's cleave!
A fire elemental is unaffected by a wraith's cleave!
A fire elemental is unaffected by a wraith's cleave!
A fire elemental dodges a wraith's attack.
An angelic female elf's punch at a shadowy wight's chest is deflected by ivory hide.
A Taslamaran courser strikes suddenly, biting at a shadowy wight's chest! Some GUTS fall!
Ithorim strikes suddenly, cleaving at a shadowy wight's chest! Some GUTS fall!
A shadowy wight dodges Ithorim's attack.
A fire elemental doubles over as it is struck by a shadowy wight's thrashing tail!
A shadowy wight slashes a fire elemental's chest, causing a gaping wound!
A shadowy wight slashes a fire elemental's stomach. Boy does BLOOD look red!
A shadowy wight slashes at a fire elemental's stomach. ENTRAILS fall to the ground!
A shadowy wight slashes at a fire elemental's right arm, tearing open a big bleeding wound!

[HP: 46%] [ME: 77%] [PE:100%]
>
zap self
You zap a wand of spinning vortices.
You step into the Ethereal Plane, slipping out of the group formation.
You turn ethereal.
Ithorim's spell passes ineffectually through you.

[HP: 46%] [ME: 77%] [PE:100%]
>
Ithorim's spell passes ineffectually through you.

[HP: 46%] [ME: 77%] [PE:100%]
>
Delaney's spell passes ineffectually through you.
Ithorim's spell passes ineffectually through you.

[HP: 46%] [ME: 77%] [PE:100%]
>
Delaney's spell passes ineffectually through you.
Ithorim's spell passes ineffectually through you.

[HP: 46%] [ME: 77%] [PE:100%]
>
Ithorim's spell passes ineffectually through you.

[HP: 46%] [ME: 77%] [PE:100%]
>
Ithorim's spell passes ineffectually through you.

[HP: 46%] [ME: 77%] [PE:100%]
>
Ithorim's spell passes ineffectually through you.

Later, you would prove again how overpowered necros were by failing in the Deeps to use the follow command when you brought a holy word brigade after me. In both of these battles, the onus fell on you to win them, and you simply failed to. Had you executed a proper plan, there is nothing I would have been able to do to win even if I played the engagements perfectly.

In all seriousness, your style of play with Surrit is the same thing you criticized me for on Vaistri, zapping etherealform and having my undead murder the opposition or getting the f out of dodge if things went sour.

Only I came to a completely different conclusion about the class than you did. It's overpowering, and boring.

I can only imagine the lulzfest this would be if the NPC from the paladin shield was still immune to everything under the sun.

But I can boil your argument down to one thing when playing a necromancer, and basically it's why nobody takes your arguments seriously.

mercenary = paladin
barbarian = paladin
swashbuckler = paladin

hellion = paladin
paladin = paladin
priest = paladin
shaman = paladin

rogue = paladin
bard = paladin
scout = paladin

sorcerer = paladin with charm
warlock = paladin with fireball

Essentially the only enemy a necromancer will *ever* face is a paladin, which is a class that is designed to be absurdly good (go figure) against what a necromancer represents, super unholy evil. There are still tons of ways for necromancers to operate though, and they haven't become as wimpy as you claim they have.

Maybe you'll just have to rethink the idea of being a solo badass.

Terrus · **Posted:** Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:08 am

Edoras, did you use the "nospam" option at all?

jerinx · **Posted:** Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:04 am

Edoras wrote:

jerinx wrote:

The most BOG one'll get in in 2 rounds is 3, if they're lucky, 3 will knock an undead out.

When you say things like I really wonder if you actually played a paladin or if that was someone else. This is the silliest statement I've read coming from the player of a paladin. Do you know why?

Yes, I know why. I'd wager it's because you are rather upset at the collective understanding of balance in these threads completely ruining every whine you have at every turn. You are continually stomping around instead of being productive with these changes and helping yourself/us/Dulrik get a more firm grasp on what they really mean.

You've proven your inability to grasp game balance/what should be fair many times over. The really productive thing you could do now, instead of posting old logs as if they're relevant, is get contemporary context and be constructive with these things. Who knows? You might end up actually coming to learn how to use some of these changes to your advantage in the process. Heck, you may find something you like.

Hell, man, I could level a necro to a relevant level and offer constructive cricitism in the time it takes you to write 2 of your posts. I'm not sure what alternative paths you see other than "Get in the mindet of working with these changes" or "delete." You're past the point of constructive additions here in the worst possible way.

Shattered Kingdoms

Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate

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