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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:10 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:00 pm
Posts: 8220
Location: Redwood City, California
Edoras wrote:
Dulrik, if an undead NPC dies in combat as opposed to being dispelled, released, or running out of their timer, their level doesn't drop. If this is bug abuse I'd like to know, as every necro in the past 2 years used the tactic of killing their undead and reanimating them before they collapse to prevent them from losing levels, and IMMs have snooped me while I've done this plenty of times.

I think this should be considered a bug, but I would probably be willing to spot you additional animate duration in exchange for fixing it.


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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:17 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:43 am
Posts: 5614
Location: Columbia, South Carolina
SK Character: Pilnor, Surrit, Berr, Rall
That would be nice, although I would definitely say it doesn't matter as much since wraiths are bad.

Oh, and my wights were getting their special attack while armed earlier.


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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:19 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:00 pm
Posts: 8220
Location: Redwood City, California
Edoras wrote:
That would be nice, although I would definitely say it doesn't matter as much since wraiths are bad.

:roll:

It doesn't matter if wraiths are bad. You want all your animated dead to have as high level corpses as possible. If I take this loophole away from you, your corpse level will drop pretty quickly unless you are constantly going back to kill GM NPCs.


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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:20 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:00 pm
Posts: 8220
Location: Redwood City, California
Edoras wrote:
Oh, and my wights were getting their special attack while armed earlier.

Dulrik wrote:
Addendum: Also note that poison and plague are bites and so they DO still work even if you hand them a weapon.


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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Mortal

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:26 am
Posts: 1252
SK Character: Rolf
Edoras wrote:
Opey wrote:
I was shocked that you didn't do something useful in this fight, such as cast fear on the paladin. You literally stood there while he started to cast holy word. I thought it was you who mentioned that a veteran shouldn't let people open a fight with a spell because they should be fast enough to move first. PVP 101, was it?
I was caught in order lag, which, as I mentioned, takes as long as a holy word. Not that it would have mattered at all in that case.



Could this be considered making a mistake? Seems to me that this is the reason Raguel and Hoch did not die in that battle, not because of the weaknesses of the necromancer. I'm making the assumption that your order lag was "o all bash/kill unkempt" so that you could neutralize the paladin.

I'm not trying to be an [REDACTED], cause I think you are addressing some real concerns.


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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:30 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:43 am
Posts: 5614
Location: Columbia, South Carolina
SK Character: Pilnor, Surrit, Berr, Rall
Yes, it was certainly a mistake. However, even assuming that I was omniscient and had immediately o all hit your griffon, your hammer griffarb would not have died in the 2-3 rounds I would have needed to o all hit you and then try to bashlock you with my controls. Animate damage is not good enough to do that anymore. The highest damage output I was able to hit with wraiths was with fury, enchanted claymores, and haste/gs on each one, which is when I 2 rounded Zonin. You can't even get close to that sort of damage output anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:05 pm 
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Mortal

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:26 am
Posts: 1252
SK Character: Rolf
Edoras wrote:
Yes, it was certainly a mistake. However, even assuming that I was omniscient and had immediately o all hit your griffon, your hammer griffarb would not have died in the 2-3 rounds I would have needed to o all hit you and then try to bashlock you with my controls. Animate damage is not good enough to do that anymore. The highest damage output I was able to hit with wraiths was with fury, enchanted claymores, and haste/gs on each one, which is when I 2 rounded Zonin. You can't even get close to that sort of damage output anymore.



Ok, but how is 2 rounding a GM warrior in one of the most militaristic groups balanced?

Also, that info command is super neat.


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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:18 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:10 pm
Posts: 426
Location: Rhode Island
SK Character: Walthur
Finally, necros get nerfed and bards get changed so they are more playable and less one-song oriented. After the enchant changes too I just might come back!


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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:20 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:01 pm
Posts: 3527
Location: I'm in a glass case of emotion!
SK Character: Retired Troll
Edoras, I don't mean to pick on you, but I feel like you're going off the deep end. I agree with parts of what you're saying, but it would help you a lot if you did not hyperbolize when you make an argument. For example, calling necros "useless" when you mean "not as good as a sorc."

In what 1v1 match-ups in neutral territory does a necromancer actually have a disadvantage? Remember that defenders are supposed to have an advantage, all else being equal.

Yes, necromancers got nerfed. Yes, sorcerer is now more appealing, and on top of having superior utility, the sorcerer might actually be better in pvp (debatable). Yes, I liked it when necromancers had firepower to compensate for their natural enemies, but necromancers still have the tools to defeat groups of 3+ newbs (emphasis on the word "newbs") -- tools that are not available to any other class. Necromancers are still good, and you are overreacting.


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 Post subject: Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 Q&A
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:31 pm 
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Mortal

Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:43 am
Posts: 5614
Location: Columbia, South Carolina
SK Character: Pilnor, Surrit, Berr, Rall
Opey wrote:
Ok, but how is 2 rounding a GM warrior in one of the most militaristic groups balanced?
When said GM warrior is an MR barb and you're using enchanted purely physical claymores. Had Zonin been a normal barbarian with SA and sanc it would have been impossible to kill him before 2 holy words got dropped in that scenario.

Baldric wrote:
In what 1v1 match-ups in neutral territory does a necromancer actually have a disadvantage? Remember that defenders are supposed to have an advantage, all else being equal.
1v1 matchups in neutral territory are a very specific ground to do battle. As well, you also worded that "when does a necromancer actually have a disadvantage" which is very specific. Sorcs don't have a disadvantage 1v1 either, but no one is complaining about them, because no one is stupid enough to fight a sorc 1v1 so that they can eventually get petrified. No, not everyone can engage a necro 1v1 in neutral territory and come out on top... but why would you ever bother anyway?

However, to answer your question: Harlie ranged is one, druid ranged is another, hammer anything, bards, any paladin ever. No, they will probably not land the kill, but that's true for anyone who goes against a caster 1v1 in neutral territory, so I see no point there.



Necros have absolutely huge, glaring weaknesses. They are personally the weakest class in the entire game, next to sorcerers. Necros have access to no skills that can keep a target locked in place except bash, and that has now been limited to controls. Everything a necro can control can be BoGed, and holy worded for double damage. You may claim that necros still have the tools to defeat groups of 3+ newbs, as if no other class can do that, but I think that a recent log by Mundy clearly indicates otherwise.

Necros are not good. Necros used to be passable if your enemies didn't know how to handle you. Now, necros are bad. They're too frail to spend any of their time in combat doing anything besides casting fear or making orders, because if the fight lasts more than 5 combat rounds, the necro's animates and controls will all be dead or near it.


I've played every class in SK except shaman, and necros are by far the easiest to screw up and die with, and now the potential damage you trade that for is laughable at best, and the only way you can take full advantage of it is to spend an entire fight ordering.



Baldric wrote:
Necromancers are still good, and you are overreacting.


Code:
[HP:100%] [ME: 94%] [PE:100%]
>
w
You dart west.

An East-West Tunnel in the Sewers
  A glossy coating can be seen reflecting against the walls due to a faint
light source coming from both the east and west. The air grows increasingly
thick and clammy as the tunnel winds onward to the east and starts to
saturate your skin with an unpleasant stickiness. The reek here is nearly
unbearable and causes your eyes to water and almost makes you regret taking
your next breath of air. Muffled scraping sounds along with the unsettling
of the pool below you can be heard echoing off the walls of the sewers all
around you.   
Obvious exits: e w rift
     The corpse of a Peacekeeper soldier is lying here.
     The severed finger of a Peacekeeper soldier is here.
     A throwing spear has been left here.
     A magical rift is glowing violently in the mid-air.
A hideous dark wraith floats near its master.
A hideous dark wraith floats near its master.
A hideous dark wraith floats near its master.
A hideous dark wraith floats near its master.
A wolf-like creature stands here, snarling and spitting in rage.
A hideous dark wraith floats near its master.
A hideous dark wraith floats near its master.
A hideous dark wraith floats near its master.
A hideous dark wraith floats near its master.
A strange-looking woman is here.
A nervous male human is here.
A repugnant male sprite is flying here.
A repugnant male sprite is flying here.
A repugnant male sprite is flying here.
A repugnant male sprite is flying here.
A repugnant male sprite is flying here.
A repugnant male sprite is flying here.
You see a large cockroach, clinging to the walls.
You see a large cockroach, clinging to the walls.
A black bat is flying overhead.
You see a large cockroach, clinging to the walls.
A black bat is flying overhead.
Officer Chirk walks in from the east.
A fastidious female sprite darts in from the east.

[HP:100%] [ME: 94%] [PE: 99%]
>
A fastidious female sprite utters the words, 'parl xafe'.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath MANGLES a black bat!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath DEMOLISHES a large cockroach!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath DEMOLISHES a black bat!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath *** OBLITERATES *** a large cockroach!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath DEMOLISHES a large cockroach!
A repugnant male sprite yells 'Huards! A f`stidjous gemald sprise is trxing to
 murder me!'
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath breaks a repugnant male sprite's
 mirror image.
A nervous male human's ward of protection vanishes.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath wounds a nervous male human.
The blessing on Aphrominas the faceless nymph's armor vanishes.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath mauls Aphrominas the faceless nymph.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath *** ANNIHILATES *** a wraith!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath *** OBLITERATES *** a wraith!
A wraith collapses to the ground.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath *** OBLITERATES *** a wraith!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath *** OBLITERATES *** a wraith!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath *** OBLITERATES *** a wraith!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath *** OBLITERATES *** a wraith!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath *** OBLITERATES *** a wraith!
A fastidious female sprite utters a word of divine power!

[HP:100%] [ME: 94%] [PE: 99%]
>
A fastidious female sprite recites something.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath *** ANNIHILATES *** a black bat!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a large
 cockroach!
A large cockroach is mortally wounded, and will die soon, if not aided.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a black
 bat!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a large
 cockroach!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a large
 cockroach!
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath breaks a repugnant male sprite's
 mirror image.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath injures a nervous male human.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath wounds Aphrominas the faceless nymph.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a wraith!
A wraith is DEAD!!
A wraith's hand is skillfully severed from its arm.
A fastidious female sprite junks a corpse of a wraith.
A jade battle axe falls out.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a wraith!
A wraith is DEAD!!
You hear a wraith's death cry.
A fastidious female sprite junks a corpse of a wraith.
A jade battle axe falls out.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a wraith!
A wraith is DEAD!!
You hear a wraith's death cry.
A fastidious female sprite junks a corpse of a wraith.
A jade battle axe falls out.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a wraith!
A wraith is DEAD!!
You hear a wraith's death cry.
A fastidious female sprite junks a corpse of a wraith.
A jade battle axe falls out.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a wraith!
A wraith is DEAD!!
You hear a wraith's death cry.
A fastidious female sprite junks a corpse of a wraith.
A jade battle axe falls out.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a wraith!
A wraith is DEAD!!
You hear a wraith's death cry.
A fastidious female sprite junks a corpse of a wraith.
A jade battle axe falls out.
A fastidious female sprite's divine wrath does UNSPEAKABLE THINGS to a wraith!
A wraith is DEAD!!
A wraith's foot is skillfully severed from its leg.
A fastidious female sprite junks a corpse of a wraith.
A pitch-black hunting spear falls out.
A long hunting spear falls out.
A fastidious female sprite utters a word of divine power!

[HP:100%] [ME: 94%] [PE: 99%]


Yeah, real good class. There's a reason that vets don't play necros, and it just got worse.


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