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Do you think the scrupulous help file needs a change?
Yes 43%  43%  [ 25 ]
No 28%  28%  [ 16 ]
Wert Option 29%  29%  [ 17 ]
Total votes : 58
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 Post subject: Re: Scrupulous helpfile wording change
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:13 pm 
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Mortal

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:48 pm
Posts: 1608
Location: My heart's in <strike>Iraq</strike> Texas with my newly re-enlisted 'som' 'soq' daughter
SK Character: Galida Apelila Shaloush Mayumi
I agree, Reinald is a lightie in the data file only. In game, he's no lightie. I wasn't there for the gank yesterday but I was around to watch some of the RP roll out. That was pure, unadulterated grey aura RP out of Reinald. And if that's an accurate sampling of Reinald's RP, he should have eaten a few curses by now.


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 Post subject: Re: Scrupulous helpfile wording change
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:18 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:00 pm
Posts: 8220
Location: Redwood City, California
Kin wrote:
If lighties aren't supposed to aid and abet darkies, then why do we have cabal diplomacy at all? Why -can- Talons truce with say, the MC if they're always at war with the Keepers? What happens in those situations? Or what about Talons trucing with the Crucible? Or even Allying with them? Why are these options even available if they're not realistically possible?

Factions do not actually have alignments because they are not people (and no, they are not incorporated). Tribunals should not care about good or evil - they are all about the law. Most cabals do have a moral code implied in their charter, and yet those organizations will not be held to alignment standards. Hence there is at least the POSSIBILITY of diplomacy in anyway they wish and that's why the options are there.

However, leaders of organizations do have alignments and I expect them to follow those alignments. For example, it's almost 100% guaranteed that every leader of the Hammer is going to be a light-aura and that every leader of Midnight is a dark-aura, and so therefore you aren't going to find the Hammer allying with Midnight. But in the 0.1% chance that both leaders are actually selfish, well, maybe they might find themselves allied for about an hour. By then, someone in Midnight should have accidentally misplaced their dagger in a Hammer member's spleen.

Note: I'm not trying to address all your questions, only the ones that I quoted above.


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 Post subject: Re: Scrupulous helpfile wording change
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:32 pm 
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Mortal

Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 5:06 am
Posts: 1447
Location: Seattle
SK Character: Theodoric
This is really clear, great guidance. I wish someone would take it on themselves to compile all of Dulrik's posts on alignment as a sort of guide to the playerbase in a thread that won't get lost to time. SK has a complicated alignment system that's sometimes very difficult for those of us who come from the classic fantasy g/n/e l/n/c environments to grasp.


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 Post subject: Re: Scrupulous helpfile wording change
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:44 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:42 pm
Posts: 944
Dulrik wrote:
Kin wrote:
If lighties aren't supposed to aid and abet darkies, then why do we have cabal diplomacy at all? Why -can- Talons truce with say, the MC if they're always at war with the Keepers? What happens in those situations? Or what about Talons trucing with the Crucible? Or even Allying with them? Why are these options even available if they're not realistically possible?

Factions do not actually have alignments because they are not people (and no, they are not incorporated). Tribunals should not care about good or evil - they are all about the law. Most cabals do have a moral code implied in their charter, and yet those organizations will not be held to alignment standards. Hence there is at least the POSSIBILITY of diplomacy in anyway they wish and that's why the options are there.

However, leaders of organizations do have alignments and I expect them to follow those alignments. For example, it's almost 100% guaranteed that every leader of the Hammer is going to be a light-aura and that every leader of Midnight is a dark-aura, and so therefore you aren't going to find the Hammer allying with Midnight. But in the 0.1% chance that both leaders are actually selfish, well, maybe they might find themselves allied for about an hour. By then, someone in Midnight should have accidentally misplaced their dagger in a Hammer member's spleen.

Note: I'm not trying to address all your questions, only the ones that I quoted above.


Thanks for the response, D. One more question. Is it out of alignment for a light aura to parole, not pardon, but parole, a diabolic who defends themselves from an attack? What's your input on it? Or simply put are lighties never, ever to aid a darkie under any circumstance?


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 Post subject: Re: Scrupulous helpfile wording change
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:51 pm 
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Mortal

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:48 pm
Posts: 1608
Location: My heart's in <strike>Iraq</strike> Texas with my newly re-enlisted 'som' 'soq' daughter
SK Character: Galida Apelila Shaloush Mayumi
Yes, kin, by all means, strip all background and context from your question. There should be none of that information available in order to make an informed decision.

You get down twinkles for your question.


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 Post subject: Re: Scrupulous helpfile wording change
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:04 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:42 pm
Posts: 944
Even if I posted logs of exactly what happened, event by event, it won't make any difference. You all dismiss it as whining and I'm not entitled to anything because i rolled a diabolic. Every event would be spun out of context and blamed on them being diabolic and thus should be instantly banished / non pardonable in any context, so it doesn't really matter. If you want I can give the exact events of Mephis' life since from when he was created. This wasn't the first time he was jailed in self defense. It also happened with Faron when they charmed Kitani and that was before Mephis even attacked anyone at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Scrupulous helpfile wording change
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:34 pm 
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Immortal (Inactive)

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:14 pm
Posts: 828
SK Character: Sargas
Muktar wrote:
Just to be clear, I can make a anti-crusader, crusader and mark everyone that I deem as not following the light, as my char sees it, label them as corrupt, then gank them.

Actually, I think the Ardith team has probably ganked more lighties in their current char's life than everyone else has in the last 5 years. Jerinx, you haven't seen the emails and if you have, it started with the first one, where he told me no, lighties killing lighties happen, no punishment needed. nxs is still holding over his ooc dislike for Reinald from when he played Kaim. I haven't heard about the leadership of Taslamar being kicked because they can't reign in Tolene and Tari. Didn't see Taslamar kick Maelgrim out of Taslamar because he was wanted in Zhensh. The amount of hypocrisy of the situation would be hilarious if I didn't care about this game.


Actually, Kaim really, really liked Reinald. There was one big argument in the beginning, and then Kaim started to talk to him on the side so that the Fist would help Reinald rebuild alliances and act as mediator. :\

Kin wrote:
Even if I posted logs of exactly what happened, event by event, it won't make any difference. You all dismiss it as whining and I'm not entitled to anything because i rolled a diabolic. Every event would be spun out of context and blamed on them being diabolic and thus should be instantly banished / non pardonable in any context, so it doesn't really matter. If you want I can give the exact events of Mephis' life since from when he was created. This wasn't the first time he was jailed in self defense. It also happened with Faron when they charmed Kitani and that was before Mephis even attacked anyone at all.


I will answer your question for you. If you killed another character, you should be outlawed. Paroling you for murder -- especially considering that your character has committed crimes in the city before -- is an awful decision for anyone to make, and it is a particularly awful one for a lightie leader to make.


Last edited by Sargas on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Scrupulous helpfile wording change
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:37 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:50 pm
Posts: 3502
Location: Canada
SK Character: Karsh
Sargas wrote:
Muktar wrote:
Just to be clear, I can make a anti-crusader, crusader and mark everyone that I deem as not following the light, as my char sees it, label them as corrupt, then gank them.

Actually, I think the Ardith team has probably ganked more lighties in their current char's life than everyone else has in the last 5 years. Jerinx, you haven't seen the emails and if you have, it started with the first one, where he told me no, lighties killing lighties happen, no punishment needed. nxs is still holding over his ooc dislike for Reinald from when he played Kaim. I haven't heard about the leadership of Taslamar being kicked because they can't reign in Tolene and Tari. Didn't see Taslamar kick Maelgrim out of Taslamar because he was wanted in Zhensh. The amount of hypocrisy of the situation would be hilarious if I didn't care about this game.


Actually, Kaim really, really liked Reinald. There was one big argument in the beginning, and then Kaim started to talk to him on the side so that the Fist would help Reinald rebuild alliances and act as mediator. :\


Don't confuse the issues with facts!


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 Post subject: Re: Scrupulous helpfile wording change
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:45 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:14 pm
Posts: 828
SK Character: Sargas
ObjectivistActivist wrote:
Don't confuse the issues with facts!


Actually, you can attest to this more than anyone. Kaim often CONSTANTLY harped on to Tari about how he was working things out with Reinald, and how things would definitely get better. OOCly I just think the character is played improperly, and no one was around with the patience and interest in really giving him the push in the right direction. It came to a head when I watched the RP yesterday and decided enough was enough.

Ironically I also accidentally gave Reinald an enlight yesterday when I was handing out enlights for the people present for the RP. This was entirely accidental. I was tired, leave me alone.


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 Post subject: Re: Scrupulous helpfile wording change
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:48 pm 
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Mortal

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:50 pm
Posts: 3502
Location: Canada
SK Character: Karsh
Sargas wrote:
ObjectivistActivist wrote:
Don't confuse the issues with facts!


Actually, you can attest to this more than anyone. Kaim often CONSTANTLY harped on to Tari about how he was working things out with Reinald, and how things would definitely get better. OOCly I just think the character is played improperly, and no one was around with the patience and interest in really giving him the push in the right direction. It came to a head when I watched the RP yesterday and decided enough was enough.

Ironically I also accidentally gave Reinald an enlight yesterday when I was handing out enlights for the people present for the RP. This was entirely accidental. I was tired, leave me alone.


I can and would attest to it. Vehemently, in fact. Kaim and Tari really didn't see eye to eye on the matter, but she was willing to have faith in Kaim's ability to sort it out and was waiting to see the results. Of course, a weaksauce rule got in the way of that resolution, making this whole stupid situation drag on and get dumped in someone else's lap.

The statement of mine you quoted was meant in an ironic tone. I'll use my irony tags next time to make that more clear.


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