Shattered Kingdoms

Right, but it took 3 tries, he should have escaped even then (The taunt wore off but he didn't walk away for some reason), and the guy probably had a will save of 5-10 enchantments plus who knows what WIS.

That just isn't very convincing. Besides, you won those fights not with charm, but with sleep. You only charmed him after the fact, and in fact the first charm failed. You could have just as easily stunned him and then spam charmed him to your hearts' content. This is, in fact, a prime example of how charm was not the best choice, but just because it worked you feel that it is OP. The fact is that Rinqo was completely screwed against Joseph six ways from Sunday anyway, all you needed was sleep and taunt to kill him: A straight charm just happened to be the way you chose to do it that required more work, but allowed you to get out without a crime. However, that's Ardith's fault, not charm person.

Which reminds me of one time on Kareth where I found Dianambis in the North's inn, so I snuck in with my lion, spam-bash stunned him, stripped him naked, then charmed him and walked him up to Exile to be jailed. That was some funny crap.

Summon Monster is an interesting solution and it'd be easier to balance than Charm Monster. I'd like to see it scale with level and you could let people choose what they summon or have what is called based on alignment. But you could even implement a stop-gap measure of just the basic spell and adjust from there instead of trying to balance it against every NPC in the game.

All those daemons and horrors running around came from somewhere, right?

It's true that if I were just trying to kill Rinqo, it would have been very easy, and I wouldn't have used charm person. But you're the guy who's always talking about how easy it is to defend against someone who is outlawed, and how hard it is to attack somewhere when you're outlawed. My point is that the most effective strategy is going to be the one that doesn't get you outlawed, since it will let you keep PKing. The most effective long-term strategy is going to be charm person. Furthermore, you will note that my sorcerer was never in any danger while using this tactic, and it was really only a matter of time before I charmed my victim. It was a fluke that it even took more than one try, since charm person lands more easily than sleep.

As for all this business about summon monster or changing charm to check for HP or to make a will check every order etc, these are all changes that require lots of coding and then further balancing tweaks. I'm not going to hold my breath on anything like that happening.

Also, since someone mentioned that "that's what saves are for" or something, I will point out that the save for charm person is -broken-. Like, it's bugged. They tested charm person against a 1000 willpower item and found that it still landed >20% of the time (when the sorc was an elf). Still, nothing is done about it because . . . honestly I do not know. It is one of the greatest mysteries of the world.

I was the test subject, I think it was my gnome priest or something like that vs Konge's sorc.

I suppose just changing it to not work on PCs is the "easiest" solution but I've never been a fan of a solution that arbitrarily works one way for one group of people and differently for everyone else. And if Sorcs are going to lose some functionality I think they should get something else.

For the longest time, I made the same argument that you just made, oldesword, and argued only for changing the saving throw for CP so it wasn't broken. What I was forgetting and what you're forgetting is that there are already arbitrary distinctions that dictate what you can and cannot charm. Many NPCs are already flagged "no charm," for no apparent reason. Like, there's a random Giant in Teron's inn that you can't charm.

Also, sorcs will still be good if this tactic is taken away from them. Trust me.

Also, Edoras, that "unkillable" dwarf, Paddah, would have died if you had just spammed charm person at him. After a few tries, you'd have gotten him. Even after I enchanted him a sick suit, Joseph landed charm like 1/7 or so on him. If you had polymorphed into an elf, you'd have been getting an even better success rate.

The only thing that I'd say here is where does it stop? Where does the distinction stop to be honest. We're so caught up on wimping eveything-until-we start playing that class. And then we cry about how badly the imms suck because it got nerfed. And why can't we change it back and oh how I miss it when it used to-

Mind you I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here, frankly though I look at how many times I see thread with people complaining about something being brokenly OPd and then weeks, months or even a year later, see them say "Oh well I didn't mean for you do to THAT!"
Frankly there is no real line. Every class has it's strengths and weaknesses. Every class has the ability to be completely broken if the right person plays it and min maxes and turns into a [REDACTED]. It's that simple. I don't care if we can't charm PC's frankly I don't use it, but I can see how some people might. It's just when do we start saying "Oh well hellions can't dominate". Oh counterstrike is so OP'd I can't kill a barb and I'm insta dying. Seriously guys? Let the classes have some balance to them so everyone can slaughter everyone else.

Coding summon monster shouldn't be any more difficult than summon elemental for warlocks. That's done, I'm assuming there can be some similiar things for summon monster. Yes it's a lot of work. But if it will make people stop the bitching about CP then it's worth it. Again this is my opinion take it as you like it, but I know someone's planning on making a sorc min maxing just to 'break it' to force the change, because that's what Skers do.

It stops when things are balanced. People who are familiar with game mechanics and PvP can look at how things work, and make reasoned determinations about what is balanced and what is imbalanced. Charm person is imbalanced. I will also point out that I have played Sorcs, and have repeatedly asked for them to be nerfed, despite never actually getting beaten by a sorc on any of my characters. This has little to do with my experience against sorcerers and everything to do with my experience -playing- sorcerers.


Every class can be powerful in the hands of a good player, but not every class can be "completely broken." I just disagree with your assessment. There is a real line. Some things are OP.


If I had a mountain of free time, I would do this. Unfortunately, it often seems like the only way to get things done around here. Too many members of the pbase/immstaff have no understanding of game mechanics and cannot be persuaded by reasoned arguments, and need issues about game balance shoved down their throats by someone who understands that a given ability is OP or simply broken. I don't have the time to level up a sorc and then PK the whole mud a half dozen times, but I imagine it would be relatively easy.

Paddah would have just used his necklace to get away, actually, but nice try. I most certainly considered that. But, Paddah avoided me in most 1v1s, and if I spent the time to cast charm person on him more than once in any given fight, I would have died or had to recall.

And as for your sorc not ever being in any danger, you may say that but if Rinqo had actually frenzied/hasted up, shot up your images with a crossbow for 2 rounds, then gone in with a dagger and circle stabs, he would have dropped you in two stabs: Basically, as long as he could resist one sleep (charm takes longer to cast than two circles takes to use) he could have not only survived, but killed you. Even in the same room, as long as he can resist one charm, he should be able to send you fleeing or kill you mid-cast with two circles once your images are gone.

The fact that you had the time to re-cast MI twice after he shot up your images is evidence that he just didn't have the guts to take you, probably related to the fact that he knew his will save was awful and that he understandably tried to avoid you as a result. He needed to take advantage of skirmish + a quicker crossbow to get rid of images in two rounds, and he could have beaten you: But only if his EQ was good enough to resist one sleep on average.

Remove charm person from Pc's. Make it a utility spell and not a combat spell. Sorcs are all about utility.