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Gnimral
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:25 am 
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Ohhh...swashies aren't going to engage fighters with taunt unless heavily prepared for serious fighting...are you kidding me? I'm not going to enhance the fighting skills of a fighter!

Taunt has that nerf: You taunt, the taunted gets a boost to accuracy and damage, yes?

Why not the same for bash? I don't get it.
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Muktar
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:27 pm 
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Idea: Bash: When this skill is used, it has multiple effects: Longer casting times, easier to hit, unable to flee for a small period in time, unable to recall. The person who bashed can continue to do other things. The person who is bashed, can continue to do things (albeit the penalties for being bashed) after 1 combat rnd (bash penalties continue for as long as they do now).
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Minette
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:45 pm 
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Back when World of Warcraft first launched, there were many what's called 'crowd control' abilities. Such as polymorph and fear being the most dominant ones. For a few years, mages could chain-poly people indefinitely, and keep them as a sheep while themselves drink/eat to regenerate.

So what Blizzard did was implement something called 'diminishing returns' that is DR. First successful sheep would last full duration that is 10 seconds, second sheep on the same target would last 5 seconds, and third sheep would last 2.5, until the target is finally immune to sheep all together.

There is a 'cooldown' time for the diminishing returns, which is somewhere around 20 seconds? Been a while. After 20 seconds, if victim does not have an ability applied to him/her, then the DR resets, and the ability lasts full duration again.

I don't know how complicated the coding is in SK, but DR made a significant impact on the usage of crowd control abilities in WoW. Players begun to use their disables, stuns and slows very carefully and with precise timing. Would something like this work in SK?
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Jardek
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:34 pm 
I would not even dignify this thread with responses if I wasn't worried that Dulrik might fall for this kind of crap.
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theDrifter
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:14 pm 
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Jardek wrote:
I would not even dignify this thread with responses if I wasn't worried that Dulrik might fall for this kind of crap.


Bash is so ingrained in this game, it can't change without fundamental changes throughout.

Warrior-mages and battle-priests are viable classes in other games, especially DnD, because there are things like combat casting, the 5-foot step and withdraw.

They are not viable in SK because bash is a spammable snare and silence and paralyze.

Every class relies on bash. Warriors: Barbarians and Mercenaries rely on bashing foes directly. Pet classes: Necromancers, Warlocks, Sorcerers and Scouts rely on ordering their pets to bash. Support classes, priests, shamans and bards rely on pets to solo explore because even a mid-level NPC with bash can prevent any spellcasting and potentially cause death. Paladins and Hellions use their horses or their dominates to bash, and the SK universe is the only place I have ever heard of a knight gaining tactical advantages by standing behind his horse with a lance, than mounted atop it.

Bash defines combat in SK. Removing or significantly altering bash will change every aspect of SK from grinding to soloing to loot-hunting to duels and group pk. However, there is no reason that such changes could not be adequately balanced and implemented in such a way as to improve the overall level of combat in SK.
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Cyra
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:27 am 
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Terrus wrote:
If bash wasn't bash spellcasters would dominate more than they already do. Bash is fine in my opinion.


Bash should be able to hit second row so that newbs will stop spam bashing pets.

On a serious note, bash does not need to stop locking down the ability to run, nor does its success rate need modified.

I've been bashed, I've had bashes miss me and I've also survived being spam bashed. It's not the end all skill.
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-Johnix-
 Post subject: Re: Bash
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:58 am 
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Bash and trip are two of the most balanced skills in the game and if the dmg is lowered just a bit they will be perfect. If you want to bash you have to stay front row which is a risk for any class. If you want to trip someone, while you cover your butt in second row, he has to be landed. Most of the time the people who complain about bash are the ones who don't like playing warriors and people who'd like to do what cannibal said. The same people should ask themselves if they remember any character who used to do nothing but spam bash and didn't die every couple of days. Many classes have no save dmg spells and sorcs have petrification. Powerful but none complains because if they stand there spamming them, even from third row, they will eventually die as well.

Also:

Gnimral wrote:
As it stands, bash, when mastered, lands just about all the time.


Barb Tournament 2006 (edited to remove my spam) wrote:
You evade Jimbo's bash and he falls flat on his face.
[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
You'll have to let him get back up first.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
You'll have to let him get back up first.
Bruck says to you 'get em.'

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
Furaha flips half-way over, giggling.
An enigmatic male half-elf looks at a charming male half-elf.

A broken-nosed female half-elf peers down at the giant.
You'll have to let him get back up first.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]

Sithara gets a clump of muddy seaweed.
You'll have to let him get back up first.
Jimbo throws back his head and cackles.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]

Jimbo laughs at himself.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
You'll have to let him get back up first.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]

A curvaceous female human asks 'Who fights now?'

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
You'll have to let him get back up first.
Irekoya says 'Aelraen and Jimbo.'

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
You'll have to let him get back up first.
A lithe male half-elf says 'Jimbo and Aelraen are waiting to fight, neither of them want to get counterstriked.'

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]

Irekoya looks at a smiling male halfling.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
You'll have to let him get back up first.
Jimbo stops resting, and clambers to his feet.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]

You evade Jimbo's bash and he falls flat on his face.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]

Furaha giggles.
You'll have to let him get back up first.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
You chuckle.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
You'll have to let him get back up first.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
You'll have to let him get back up first.
A bracer made of mithril scales on Irekoya's wrist shimmers slightly.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]

Bruck grins.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
You'll have to let him get back up first.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]

Furaha marks a tally in the snow next to her.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
A persnickety male human says 'just kick dirt at someone already.'

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]

Jimbo starts laughing so loud; the ground seems to shake.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
You'll have to let him get back up first.
Bruck exclaims 'Aelraen way ter fast!'

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
You'll have to let him get back up first.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
You'll have to let him get back up first.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]

Furaha gets a delicate silver pointer from an ornate silver ring set with rubies.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]

A persnickety male human makes a gruff dismissive gesture.
You'll have to let him get back up first.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
You'll have to let him get back up first.
Jimbo stops resting, and clambers to his feet.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]

Irekoya tells you 'If he misses another bash.'

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]

You evade Jimbo's bash and he falls flat on his face.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]

Bruck claps at your performance.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]

Furaha winks at a charming male half-elf.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
You'll have to let him get back up first.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]

Bruck throws back his head and cackles.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]

Arsilan laughs.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]

Furaha claps at Jimbo's actions.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE:100%]
Jimbo is blinded by the dirt in his eyes!
You punch at Jimbo's chest, barely wounding him.

[HP:100%] [ME:100%] [PE: 98%]

You punch at Jimbo's chest, barely wounding him.
Jimbo dodges your attack.
Jimbo dodges your attack.
Jimbo pounds your chest, barely wounding you.
Jimbo pounds your chest, barely wounding you.
Overall, Jimbo has a few scratches.

[HP: 98%] [ME:100%] [PE: 98%]

Furaha marks another tally in the snow.
A charming male half-elf cheers loudly.

[HP: 98%] [ME:100%] [PE: 98%]

You evade Jimbo's bash and he falls flat on his face.

[HP: 98%] [ME:100%] [PE: 98%]

Furaha says 'Fours...'
He's already on the ground.


I also have a couple of logs where I am trying desperately to bash a giant but you get my point. Now put a halfling there instead of a helf and things get worse both for the halfling and the giant. If casters with 4 dex are getting sprawled every single time, then yeyyy, things work fine.
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Cyra
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:58 am 
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I think the problem is that casters are arrogant and don't bother to dump stat points into dexterity or to get mods for it, and try to get that stat as low as possible.

It's not imbalanced that they get bashed, they designed their characters to be bash meat.
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Aneira
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:54 am 
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I always max out all my stat points with mods. Of course, when I play a caster I'm never in front row. If I am, I expect to die anyway.
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Terrus
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:43 pm 
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Cyra wrote:
I think the problem is that casters are arrogant and don't bother to dump stat points into dexterity or to get mods for it, and try to get that stat as low as possible.

It's not imbalanced that they get bashed, they designed their characters to be bash meat.


No truer words have ever been typed!
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