Shattered Kingdoms

Good aligned characters shouldn't be aiding and abetting evil aligned characters, so if situation arises, they are not adhering to their alignment any better than the scrupulous or principled character that kills other good aligned characters in the pursuit of evil. In my opinion, they are opening themselves up to be cursed, too.

At best, they can be a nuisance and minor headache. However, using the Nerina inn example, if you slaughter all the darkies in the room, what are they going to do about it? Nothing, if they adhere to their alignment. If they kill you for it, they are subject to a curse for killing another good aligned character.

The sky is not falling. You can still play the hard nosed, bloodthirsty zealot out to destroy evil, with the only limitation being that you will actually confine the slaughter to evil and neutral characters. Or if you absolutely must be a Samuel L. Jackson badass and kill every last [REDACTED] around ("What" ain't no country I know! Do they speak English in "What?"), choose the unprincipled alignment instead.

I never said the sky was falling.

It's just a shame that everyone wants everybody else to RP in a specific manner. Anything else other than what you're told to do is mind boggling and unacceptable.

The game has become more of good versus evil, or something along those lines.

Besides, I don't see anywhere in the helpfiles that state that white auras associating, or even helping dark auras is against their alignment.

What this change does is present a restriction so that the crybabies that play the mud can run and scream to the immstaff whenever they don't get their way. It's presented because they'd rather not roleplay things out in game, but would rather have their way in an ooc medium.

The only thing I can predict this change is going to cause is more people crying when they get their asses handed to them and then running and crying that so-and-so needs cursed because they can't handle roleplaying in the game.

Of course, from my perspective, it'll be interesting holding paragon with the most amount of penalties as well, because despite the helpfile change, my character's personality isn't going to suddenly shift. That's how he was created, and that's how he's staying.

In the end we needed the help file changed so that someone could feel comfortable with roleplaying a white aura character? How unimaginative are we becoming? The next big change is where RP is coded for us, that we don't have to do anything and there will be no qualms. Which probably is what is needed since different concepts can't be utilized or concepts can fluorish. One needs simply to become a victim of conformity to have an acceptable position in roleplaying.

These changes don't really have any merit, and only open up the gateway for those that like to complain to actually legitimize their complaints, so that they can inflict harm on specific characters in one form or another. And that's exactly what is going to happen. People who play white aura characters shouldn't have to watch their backs because someone might disagree with the way that they're playing their characters.

I'll have to give Muktar credit though. Dulrik fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Anyway, I can basically sum up the argument that began this thread:

:cry:

Ironic, but most of the crying seems to be coming from the folks that don't like the change, not the folks who agree with it. And while it may not be in the help files that scrupulous and principled characters shouldn't aid and abet evil aligned characters, it is common sense. Perhaps the IMMs need to be proactive and monitor those occurences, since that seems to be the major sticking point of players that believe scrupulous and principled characters should be able to kill other good aligned characters.

Ultimately, I see the change as beneficial to good aligned characters. When you play an evil or neutral character, every one is potentially your enemy and might kill you. As a good aligned character, you only have to worry about evil and neutral characters now.

Nothing has changed except for players that weren't previously adhering to the tenets of scrupulous and principled alignments. Common sense dictates that characters of good alignment should not be killing each other. Somewhere along the way, the line between scrupulous and unprincipled got blurred, and Dulrik has clarified the difference.

I think that light versus light encounters -should- happen. Albeit at lower frequency than dark versus dark encounters. Of course, I'm of the opinion that darkies aren't at each other's throats enough these days, but that's another subject.

And when did anybody ever adhere to roleplaying as the helpfiles dictate (even though alignment is admitted to only being a *rough guideline* not a dictation).

All I see coming from this change is an unnecessary restriction which punishes "good" aligned characters for things that are often out of their control.

I'm never going to respect the opinion of someone who only plays dark aura characters either.

This is all about crybabies who can't handle the exquisite roleplay of others who play lighties? Really?

You do not fit my definition of good. Since you don't fit my definition of good, you are obviously evil. I kill every evil person I meet. Since I kill every evil person I meet and you are obviously evil, I'm going to kill you now.

(reward large scrupulousguy)
Obviously exquisite roleplay.
[/sarcasm]

While I agree there may be times it's necessary for lighties to kill lighties, the line has been blurred so terribly that a higher power had to do something to remedy the situation.

sidenote: I'm sure there's still room for lightie nature lovers to kill griffons. There better be, anyway.

Oh man, good times. Yeah, I used to love popping off to Nerina and ganking everyone, because everybody from the other cities learned not to hang out in their town squares after a while. And better, you were always guaranteed to get a mudsexxor, whether it was Athana, Ishtara, or Ravaelana.

It was hardly wholesale slaughter though. The only people I ganked in Nerina were ganked for good reasons. I'd leave people I had no business with alive if they decided not to get involved in the fight. And I'm certainly not three, though I had some good times with his character of the time, Ariacron.

And Cyra, you can hate me all you like, but when there were claims running rampant about you sexually harrassing Merenna, I was pretty much the only person in the mud who had your back and talked her out of screwing you over.

I can see a circumstance where a lightie will defend a darkie. A principled Talon leader who believes in their laws to the fullest extent, and is willing to die to protect a darkie who has committed no crime in Zhenshi.

Assuming the Talons are actually competent (that's assuming a lot, but whatever) any darkie who has not committed a crime in Zhenshi but massacres people everywhere else becomes invincible while in Nerina. Having the support of the local tribunal makes him much harder to kill, but slapping a handicap on the attacking lighties to be forced to stun makes the odds even worse. Now, I'm all for lighties making life more difficult for themselves for RP reasons, but I don't think something like this should be enforced by the IMMs. I think interesting and legal RP results from clashes like this.

For another example of lightie vs. lightie, the Keepers "surrendered" to the MC a long while back because they were dying so frequently it became ridiculous. IMO, it was a good RP move because there were no darkie clauses in the agreement- just a cease fire and pardons. The MC needed it because they wanted to turn the keepers against the hammer and to devote resources elsewhere. The lighties at the time were few in number and unable to protect the Keepers. Thus, the keepers had little recourse but to "surrender" or just stop logging in. This obviously caused some friction between lightie factions and the keepers, and I think it would have been 100% legal for the hammer to attack and kill keepers who were grouped with MC. "Side with the enemy, die with the enemy."

Sure, if you work really hard you can find causes extreme enough for lighties to kill lighties. What this is trying to stop is the silly idea: "How dare you be so principled as to defend this dark aura! You must really be evil, so now I can kill you too!" I don't recommend trying that on cops in real life. It shouldn't fly in the game, either.

Lighties value life. They work for the common good. They should be trying really hard not to kill each other. If a case is actually extreme enough that they HAVE to fight, I'm sure the immortals will understand. But most of these so-called justifications don't cut it. Even a worshipper of Nashira who murders griffons doesn't deserve a light aura. ICly, griffons may be considered abominations, but OOCly they're light-aura sentinents. Alignment is an OOC judgement on a character.

Please note that this does not stop dark vigilantes. It merely gives them the appropriate dark alignment. No one says a character has to believe the alignment system. The only class sure to notice something is priests, because of all their alignment spells, but even they can get an out with sufficient imagination. It's quite consistent to have an aberrant character with a Hammer-like mission.

Yes Adder, that's right, or at least it would be, if you weren't forgetting a rather iimportant detail: Absolutely no one in the Council of Blossoms, nor the Empress, nor any ruler in the history of Nerina ever claimed Zhenshi will sit and take it as foreign criminals flood the nation and stay there until the storm has passed. We're of course talking about serious crimes, not stealing a loaf of bread or some coin.

In other words, work the diplomacy out and Zhenshi -will- force criminals out of the land after a certain period of time, they are not turning a blind eye on real troublemakers or terrible criminals. Just as it happened in the past with both Zhenshi and Taslamar, I've both observed and taken part in such RP situations and they were fantastic. -This- is what going around an obstacle is all about. I bet a silver-tongued Hammer leader or an appointed embassador of the Hammer will be more than capable of having the Darkies kicked out in a matter of days. Imagine what will happen if the Darkies still attempt to hide in Zhenshi? Zhenshi itself will become their enemy, and not just allow Hammers to kill them, but help them out too. All it takes is some sleek displays of diplomacy and negotiation.

2nd Example: There's a difference between Surrendering and Supporting. Did the Keepers -help- the MC? You said yourself that there were no conditions, just a cease fire. If any keeper actually HELPED the MC commit evil acts, they should have gotten cursed and opposed by the Hammer. But this isn't what happened, right?

I don't think the IMMS will suddenly change into three-headed cerberi. They've always allowed a lot of freedom in players' RP and that won't stop now. I am fairly confident the players rein themselves in when need be.


Cyra: I am just going to repeat Finney who said it back at the top; Lighties aren't suddenly corrupt or fallen when they help Darkies. They are good people and many good people help even those who do not deserve it. BUT, ONLY as long as their doing so does not result in actual harm. No Lightie should help a Darkie commit evil, he should help him so the Darkie may become a bit less of a bad guy if he receives fuzzy affection and a lot of baby oil. But (for example) helping a necromancer get back to life when you know or suspect t hat he's not going to go away but murder innocents or cause trouble, then you're doing a Bad thing.