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Drive-by casting
https://shatteredkingdoms.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=23368		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  Opey [ Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Drive-by casting
I think I would like to discuss eliminating walk-in holy words. Right now it is considered a legitimate tactic. However, it does not really give the opponent much of a counter move. Usually, it seems to me, it is done with the intention of retreating/fleeing and doing the walk-in HW again. This is, again, something the opponent can do very little about short of just leaving the battle arena.

Can we discuss this?
Author:  Edoras [ Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
Styles wrote:
EDIT: just checked the log again. There were six wraiths. That makes it even more likely we're dealing with unberserked wraiths.
There's 6 wraiths, but only five are attacking (Only five start after he orders them), so one must have been in the back rank.

Then again, animates nowadays don't have berserk or fury, so it's actually more accurate to now if they don't.


Eliminating the ability to walk-in holy word would be a step in the right direction. At least necros will get one order before their undead get wasted.
Author:  Styles [ Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
Edoras wrote:
Now, the only thing they can do is hit, so all they have is physical damage. In addition, none of the animated undead that do physical damage get berserk. So, in effect their utility was removed and their damage was lowered. No, I'm not using wraiths. I'm using skeletons, which is like using wraiths before, except with half as much HP and without berserk/fury and all I can do with them is o all hit.

More balanced, in other words.

Also, there is nothing wrong with walk-in holy words. It takes two people to pull that move off. If you have another PC with your necromancer, this tactic should not be so devastating. Your barbarian buddy can smash your foes while you fear or finger of death or whatever else. In fact, just by way of having an undead army, you have forced them to spend time using holy word just to even the playing field.

Necro + Melee guy vs. Healer + Melee guy could be an interesting contest. There is no need to get rid of the walk-in holy word option for them. It will still be a good fight if all of the players are decent.
Author:  Opey [ Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
I'm disappointed that I only got one person to comment on my topic of walk-in holy words. I feel that this topic held valid and interesting points on both sides. Unfortunately, the only person to comment didn't really seem to know what they were talking about. This can be done with one person - a tribunal member. In fact, most of the time that I've seen this tactic done (both personally and in logs) is when it is done by one person in a tribunal. It is easier to pull off with one person than it is to pull of with multiple because there is no coordination between two people.

So, what about it? Last attempt I'll make. What if tribunal NPCs are not able to walk while casting, and maybe PCs are? What about getting rid of casting while walking all together? What about keeping it all the same?
Author:  Nightwing [ Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
Opey, that topic deserves its own thread if you really want to hammer on it.
Author:  Edoras [ Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
I agree that preventing walk-in holy words would be a good change to make now that animates have been nerfed. A while ago Dulrik proposed making holy word as well as certain other powerful spells (like final strike maybe?) impossible to concentrate on while walking, which would now be a very good change if you ask me. I think it was perhaps around the same time where Zerel was complaining about the level 10 cockroaches outshining wraiths.
Author:  Galactus [ Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
Curious, is order lag shorter than the cast time for HW? It is implied, but no one has actually said this is true. Note, curious about only with races that have cha range of 20-22
Author:  Edoras [ Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
They're very similar. If someone is standing in front of the person you're holy wording, the holy word is all but guaranteed to land, and that's even if they aren't walking in with it.
Author:  Dulrik [ Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
Nightwing wrote:
Opey, that topic deserves its own thread if you really want to hammer on it.

I think this would be a good idea. I don't want it to get lost in this haystack.
Author:  Styles [ Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Code Update 12/10/2012 - Necromancer Debate
Opey wrote:
I'm disappointed that I only got one person to comment on my topic of walk-in holy words. I feel that this topic held valid and interesting points on both sides. Unfortunately, the only person to comment didn't really seem to know what they were talking about. This can be done with one person - a tribunal member. In fact, most of the time that I've seen this tactic done (both personally and in logs) is when it is done by one person in a tribunal. It is easier to pull off with one person than it is to pull of with multiple because there is no coordination between two people.

So, what about it? Last attempt I'll make. What if tribunal NPCs are not able to walk while casting, and maybe PCs are? What about getting rid of casting while walking all together? What about keeping it all the same?


What is so bad about a solo tribunal member walking in with his, what, master level holy word from a NPC? It's not like one holy word from a NPC is going to destroy the necro army. It will put a dent in it; that's all. NPCs also don't generally have their spells mastered, so it could fail. If a successful holy word requires two hits to drop even the weakest HP animate, what is the problem here? Who is getting reamed after that holy word hits the entire necro army and they all instantly retaliate? Even if the necromancer allows a second holy word to destroy his skeletons, he will still have all of his controls and any of his stouter animates, and he can also, you know, use the rest of his spell list. He also has options open to preventing the skeletons from dying in two shots. I just don't see how this is even remotely an issue. In a one-on-one scenario with a tribunal necromancer fighting a tribunal character who has a holy word NPC, there is still parity. The fight could go either way, depending on the skill and tactics of the players.

This is such a nonissue it's not even funny.
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