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Spells gained from herbs / items etc.
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Author:  Kin [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Spells gained from herbs / items etc.
Ok, so today I learned something. (Being that I still don't know much about SK despite my time playing.) And that is that some herbs / items / whatever give some neat spells. Sanctuary, etc. Things of that nature.

So today I fought what I assume is a merc. Won't list my character nor his, but mine is a Hellion. Ok, so I'm under the impression that mercs have a ton of hp, specialize, fourth attack, parry, enhanced parry, all that juicy stuff that a melee class should have. A Hellion on the other hand, has lower HP's, but makes up for it with spells, strong initiative attacks and defensive spells such as protection or so that reduces damage from opposite aura (correct me if I'm wrong on this). In melee combat, they can't really stack well against a barb or merc unless they get a lucky cleave or so, we all know this.

So, my question is this..Why does a merc have access to protection? From my understanding it's a powerful defensive spell to make up for the lack of HP's that they have etc. I can understand some things being available, such as fly..Detection spells like detect invis or hidden, even sanctuary to an extent..But protection and word of recall? It sort of makes me wonder why one would even play a hellion or paladin or such since everyone can just quaff vials of heal or vials of word of recall or pop herbs with sanc or protection. They gain the same benefits as a hellion has with the lack of say cleave or hellfire, but have far more HP, and are far more durable. (Specialize and fourth attack are just nuts.)

Anywho, I'm not meaning to coming off as whining or so, but I am legitimately concerned. Why are so many spells so available? Someone fully spelled up with say Bless, Gstr, Haste, protection, sanc, resist elements etc is just beyond insane in my opinion. Of course I could be mistaken on some of the spells available through such means. If i am, please enlighten me as I'm rather curious.
Author:  Adder [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
First of all, you should know that the spells (we tend to call them "buffs" because they buff you up- meaning, make you stronger) also have degrees of power. For example, a cheap storebought item that gives you giant strength does not give you as much strength as another very rare item that is hard to get.

What does that mean? It means that your spells are not worthless. Protection, for example, reduces magical damage. A merc might be able to go out and pick up some item that gives him the equivalent of an Expert casting protection on him, but when you cast protection on yourself it takes on your level- I would assume you are somewhere between master and grand master, meaning your spell is substantially stronger than his.

A huge factor in PK is balancing the buffs you can cast on yourself with ones that you can find or get others to give you through brewing or finding herbs.

Don't feel like your spells are useless- they are not. Protection from a Grand Master hellion reduces a lot more damage than the same spell coming from a journeyman scout. However, you should always be working to improve the buffs on you. You can eat the same herbs a merc can, and quaff the same potions. Don't think that mercs are simply always better.



Oh yea, and in case you didn't know, cleaves have a chance to instantly kill somebody regardless of armor, level or buffs. A merc has no such equivalent. :P
Author:  Sypher [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
I will say, it is kind of insane what you can pull off with a little preperation.


Code:
oOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOo
 o [Affects] Asmodai.                                                        o
 o===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===-===o
 o Affect: 'protection'                                                      o
 o Affect: 'stone skin'                                                      o
 o Affect: 'detect invis'                                                    o
 o Affect: 'ironguard'                                                       o
 o Affect: 'haste' - haste bonus to weapon speed                             o
 o Affect: 'haste' - haste bonus to dexterity                                o
 o Affect: 'giant strength' - enhancement bonus to strength                  o
 o Affect: 'sanctuary'                                                       o
 o Affect: 'shield' - deflection bonus to magical protection                 o
 o Affect: 'fly'                                                             o
 o Affect: 'lighten load'                                                    o
 o Affect: 'armor' - deflection bonus to probability to dodge                o
 o Affect: 'prayer' - morale bonus to reflex                                 o
 o Affect: 'prayer' - morale bonus to willpower                              o
 o Affect: 'prayer' - morale bonus to fortitude                              o
 o Affect: 'prayer' - morale bonus to weapon damage                          o
 o Affect: 'prayer' - morale bonus to probability to hit                     o
 oOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOoOOOo


But what one class can get, so can another. And, as Adder said, spells cast by players will always be more powerful than brewed or herbed spells, even if only barely, but many times much moreso. All classes have some sort of perk, mercenaries of course should trump a hellion in melee combat. But as a hellion you should never really be in straight melee with a mercenary to begin with. You'll have a dominate and a pet infront of you, you'll have your arsenal of spells, against mercenaries, blindness, weaken, and curse are all very useful and crippling to the mercenary. Hellfire is no pushover of a spell either. Don't forget that you can cast the spells on your weapon as well, so that they all fire on the first hit, such as your cleave.

Last but not least, cleave is the great equalizer, you could be the worst player in the world, and still kill the best with one lucky cleave. I remember getting one shotted by some scrub delf hellion on my mercenary, when I had the best gear in the game, and was all spelled up. Full IC gear, fully enchanted, protection, ironguard, several other defensive spells. Killed in one shot by a crit cleave, it was an iron weapon no less, and it still killed me through ironguard. Use it often!
Author:  Kin [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
Aye, hellions are my favorite class so I love them and know just about all of them.

At the time of said duel, I had Protection, Gstr and Haste on. 25 str and 23-25 dex. From my understanding Protection works on melee damage and shield works on spell damage. As far as buffs go, that's really all i know of.

The way the duel worked, he had basically what you had from his PoV. Gstr, bless, resist elements, protection and a few others. On my weapon I casted weaken and poison (both of which have a str hit) and both landed. I also aimed lower with the cleave with a landy, fully enchanted (greater hit + damage) and cleave at superb. Max int, wisdom etc. I done about..17% damage to him. He chewed through my nightmare with a one handed weapon (as i believe he had a shield) in literally 1 and a half rounds...Landed bash before my hellfire even cast, and in the 3 rounds that followed..It was like...100-51..dead. or so. 3 rounds. It seems my crit cleaves don't hit often anymore. Then again, I don't have it mastered yet either (takes foreeeeeeeever to train it) which I probably should..

Edit: Needless to say this kind of makes me go W..T..F. is all. I'm wondering how some classes can literally solo pump out so much damage and take so little in return. Generally just about ever encounter i've had, most have killed my nightmare, don't get me wrong (as i'm always behind it) but that's the quickest i've ever seen one killed.
Author:  Adder [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
Kin wrote:
At the time of said duel, I had Protection, Gstr and Haste on. 25 str and 23-25 dex. From my understanding Protection works on melee damage and shield works on spell damage. As far as buffs go, that's really all i know of.

Sorry, I actually substantially screwed that up. I was thinking shield.

Protection protects against all damage from the opposite aura, physical or magical I believe. Shield only works on magical damage, but from any aura.


Quote:
On my weapon I casted weaken and poison (both of which have a str hit) and both landed.

Plague is another spell hellions can cast I believe, and it actually helps in combat by reducing their dex. There's one more maledict I think, but it can be tough to get all the buffs on in time.

Quote:
I also aimed lower with the cleave with a landy, fully enchanted (greater hit + damage) and cleave at superb. Max int, wisdom etc. I done about..17% damage to him. He chewed through my nightmare with a one handed weapon (as i believe he had a shield) in literally 1 and a half rounds...Landed bash before my hellfire even cast, and in the 3 rounds that followed..It was like...100-51..dead. or so. 3 rounds. It seems my crit cleaves don't hit often anymore. Then again, I don't have it mastered yet either (takes foreeeeeeeever to train it) which I probably should..

You should have had a dominate. Having a nightmare is only sufficient if you're going to fight a class with low melee damage. There are some good dominates out there that are equivalent to mentor level mercenaries, but you should ask other hellions IC about them if you can.

Quote:
Edit: Needless to say this kind of makes me go W..T..F. is all. I'm wondering how some classes can literally solo pump out so much damage and take so little in return. Generally just about ever encounter i've had, most have killed my nightmare, don't get me wrong (as i'm always behind it) but that's the quickest i've ever seen one killed.

There is a maximum potential and an average potential to each class. What this means is that while some classes are absolute POWERHOUSES when equipped the best, they tend to suck when they don't have such equipment.

Mercenaries are probably the best class in the game if they could get any eq with any enchants they wanted. They dish out the most physical damage over time of any class, they can tank the most, they can reach and enchants make them highly resistant to spells. On the flip side, a merc with iron armor and a steel weapon will be killed by anybody who walks by and looks at them funny.

Hellions, on the other hand, have a good (but not superb) maximum potential but a decent average potential. I mean, a hellion with a cleaving weapon and enough cash for a nightmare is damn dangerous. Put the dominate in front of you, get it a decent weapon. Maledict blade, cleave to open combat, use hellfire to really hurt them afterwards. Your damage output is going to be very close to the same whether you are naked (excluding weapon) that you are when you are fully equipped. Only your defense suffers.

That's a simplification of the issue. If you want further insight, visit javamonkey's website and post the log of your combat and people can help break down what you did wrong.

http://[REDACTED].com/index.php?board=6.0
Author:  Gilgon [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mercenaries don't dish out more melee damage than any class in the game, barbs do ;/.

And steel weapons do the same damage that adamantite weapons do, they aren't as weak as you think Alex!

(hellions get curse/weaken/poison/plague, all of which owns)
Author:  Adder [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
Gilgon wrote:
Mercenaries don't dish out more melee damage than any class in the game, barbs do ;/.

And steel weapons do the same damage that adamantite weapons do, they aren't as weak as you think Alex!

(hellions get curse/weaken/poison/plague, all of which owns)

Barbs do if they manage to get fury off, which is by no means guaranteed. I would take specialize in a great weapon than the fickleness of fury. In my playing style, I'd prefer to win 99% of the battles I should win and lose 99% of the battles I should lose than win 75% of the battles that I have the advantage in and 25% of the ones that I would have lost if I was a merc.

Weapons of lesser material crack. Often? Depends what they're hitting. However, a cracked weapon usually screws you in combat.

At any rate, it was clearly a simplification, but I think it demonstrated the point.
Author:  Kin [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ah I see. I've thought of using dominate, and even tried doing so. The problem is, with human (max int of 20) and even having max int (or I believe it was max int) i didn't have enough concentration to really hold the dominate and be able to cast as well as hold protection / detects. (Both of which pretty much have to be up at all times as much as i get attacked anymore). Without being able to cast hellfire, well that hurt quite a bit. Then again I may have not had max intelligence like I thought. I'll check it out tomorrow. gotta work tonight.

Thanks for the clarification though. To be honest I've been a bit disheartened with the way some things have been going on my character and been getting killed far too often. I'll start experimenting with domination some now. Thanks for the insight guys.
Author:  Adder [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
Kin wrote:
Ah I see. I've thought of using dominate, and even tried doing so. The problem is, with human (max int of 20) and even having max int (or I believe it was max int) i didn't have enough concentration to really hold the dominate and be able to cast as well as hold protection / detects. (Both of which pretty much have to be up at all times as much as i get attacked anymore). Without being able to cast hellfire, well that hurt quite a bit. Then again I may have not had max intelligence like I thought. I'll check it out tomorrow. gotta work tonight.


This is a great example of when you have to start making tactical decisions. For example, if you suspected you'd run into that merc (which you clearly did, since you had maledicts on your weapon), you should have released shield and gotten a dominate. It's not necessary to hold a spell on you in that scenario where the merc has no spells.

As for detects, there are many easily obtainable (many purchaseable) items that will give you detect invis/hidden. I'd encourage you to use those instead of casting them. They're just as "strong" as when you cast them (there is no difference in effect) but they last short periods of time.
Author:  Summ97 [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Remember you can purchase potions for detects. That will help with concentration.

You were also fighting someone with a weapon that does 2x damage to dark auras and has advantages because they were 'mounted.'
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