Shattered Kingdoms

Should Griffons really be pinned down with giants in the dark, lonely chasm of 15 cha? I know they get toughness and some very nice resistances, but they have to run around naked for it- and they just don't strike me as the distant type, to say the least.

Please post your thoughts and your QQing.

Griffon cha is too limited, yes. I wouldn't mind seeing it bumped to the 18-20 range, tending towards the low end by my preference.

I really don't know the reasoning behind the 15 limit of cha on griffons, but I can't come up with any reasons for it on my own.

Griffons, who are actually a chimeric being and especially in the realms of SK where there's history why many people on its realms would find them most repelling ought to have a very low charisma. I believe it's fine as it is.

Now, mechanics wise, griffons have a hell of a boost on their stats. They even have a bulk of 12 extra stat points compared to ANY other race of the game. They are one of the very few races that can have GREAT strength and constitution combined with very decent intelligence and dexterity and fine wisdom. I still think their cha is perfect for what they are supposed to be.

I imagine that it would be difficult for people to accept griffon as much more than a gifted animal. I think their charisma reflects that pretty well. They can be as eloquent and well-mannered as they like, but at the end of the day, they're still just lion-eagles with big brains.

Considering the class and eq limitations of griffons, 18 wis isn't "fine" and 22 con isn't "great." It's adequate. Their dex is also a poor reflection of what they're supposed to be, physiologically. Do they start out a little better? Sure. That just makes them newbie friendly though (until someone comes along and ganks them just for being a griffon, that is), because at the end of the day their weaknesses more than balance the initial boost.

Back on the topic of CHA though. Charisma is not determined by what others think, it's determined by the character in question. It's your ability to be mentally dynamic, not a reflection of how many other characters like you. The argument that "people don't like them" has literally nothing at all to do with charisma, as it's described in the SK help files, because how charismatic a character is, just like how intelligent, strong or durable they are, is NOT determined by those around them.

Highly intelligent beings tend to be more adaptive. Cats tend towards dynamic, social thinking, especially big cats like lions. Birds as well, if you're looking at flock behavior. Griffons also have numerous forms of social structure and heirarchy, ICly, and it doesn't seem likely that that would be possible for "socially inept" people to create.

I know many of you "hate griffons" for one reason or another, but that's not a reason to argue against them getting a fair and "realistic" stat maximum for cha.

I have played a griffon quite a few times myself, so no-matter what my current character believes, I am not a griffon-hater. And I still strongly feel that griffons should no-way have higher charisma, both for RP reasons and game balance.

Have to disagree with you here, OA. I agree griffons could use a bit of help, especially in top-level play, but I don't see higher CHA as being particularly in-character.

Griffons are very different from humans and demi-humans. That extends to more than tool use. Griffons can't use human body language, especially facial expressions. This limits rapport. Griffons also aren't as accustomed to working in large social groups. (Just try to find griffon groups politically functioning above the clan level - except for Owyran, and what a mess that is!) Nor are inherent altruists likely to be particularly good at motivating those not so wired. Add that to griffons looking a lot like monsters....

I'd like to see the racial experience penalty lessened. The combined effects of low CHA and the race penalty are really annoying. Otherwise, I'd look for more IC improvements.

Once again, CHA is not determined by outside factors. It is a stat to represent mental dynamism of the individual, not the reactions of others to said individual.



I can think of two, just off the top of my head, and that doesn't include Qul'kelxi.



We'll just completely sidestep the "inherent altruists" part, since it isn't true in any way, shape or form, and cover the "motivating others" part, which, presuming you're speaking to the leadership aspect of cha, is only a marginal portion of leading. You don't have to convince people to be exactly like you to find common ground to work on and towards a common goal.



Once more, completely irrelevant.



I have no idea what you're talking about here. As far as I've been able to tell, and I play griffons regularly, there isn't one of these.

Objective:

Raptors do not go around in flocks. They're solitary predators, outside of mating interests. Male lions will either form a pride of female ones and fend off every grown male in sight, or attempt to form a pride and get fended off and bitten. You're not making a very good argument for me.

Also.. Griffons are *not* limited in body language, they can understand and communicate with *eachother* perfectly. Should we chop all the humanoid race's cha's to 15 (15!!) because their smiles and frowns seem freakish and confusing to griffons?

As for whoever said that griffons don't exist outside of clans..
It takes every ounce of self-restraint to not post a small book on anthropology at that blatant offense. Every natural form of social interaction exists at a clan or village level. The only social system introduced by cities and countries is a more confined environment for clan warfare to take place in.

Furthermore, many griffons have incorporated themselves into the humanoid societies, namely Zhenshi and Taslamar. As for that exp penalty thing.. Yes, griffons have a penalty to their experience intake, because they're just that awesome.

Actually, I can think of at least one species of raptor that does exist in flocks. As to the lions, you're still talking about social dynamics, and it's still social grouping and behavior. Not to mention the pack hunting tactics they use, which again is social dynamics and behavior.