Yeah, too bad nobody can single-handedly own a group's face like a shaman can.
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| Class Diversity https://shatteredkingdoms.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=15987 |
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| Author: | Salandarin [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Class Diversity |
I had this afternoon to myself, so I thought I might take a look at each of the classes and see how unique they really are. I tried to be as exhaustive as I could in looking at each class - the skills listed first are wholly unique, and those below them are semi-unique, being shared by no more than two other classes. Below that, I thought I'd try and classify the skills of each class into one of the three basic categories, for the purpose of comparing strengths and weaknesses. Durability involves abilities that, plain and simple, allow someone to survive longer. Utility involves abilities that provide some kind of strategic advantage or boon to fellow players. Damage is pretty self-explanatory. Some abilities overlap. Quote: Mercenary: rallying cry retreat specialize blitzkrieg bash (barbarian, giant) enhanced parry (swashbuckler) fourth attack (barbarian) durability passive: highest HPs, parry, shield block, dodge, enhanced parry, heavy armor bonus active: disarm, bash, trip utility rallying cry, retreat, dirt kicking, trip, bash, rescue, dirt kicking damage passive: fourth attack, specialize active: kick, bash, blitzkrieg Quote: Swashbuckler: dual wield taunt finesse riposte enhanced parry (mercenary) durability passive: highest HPs, parry, dodge, enhanced parry active: disarm, trip utility taunt, trip, dirt kicking damage passive: dual wield, finesse, riposte active: kick Quote: Barbarian: berserk/fury alertness blind fighting toughness (griffon) wild fighting counterstrike head butt bash (mercenary, giant) butcher (scout) tracking (scout, warlock) fourt attack (mercenary) durability passive: highest HPs, dodge, parry, shield block, toughness/heavy armor bonus, counterstrike active: berserk/fury, bash, disarm, utility bash, rescue, dirt kicking, tracking damage passive: wild fighting/fourth attack, counterstrike active: bash, berserk/fury Quote: Priest: faerie fire (sprite, delf) holy symbol magical vestment remove compulsion (cloth only) faerie fog (sprite) harm mass healing resurrection religion spell brew (shaman, warlock) bless (paladin, shaman) refresh (paladin, shaman) frenzy (paladin, shaman) detect poison (warlock) cure poison (shaman, warlock) cure deafness (paladin, shaman) cure blindness (paladin, shaman) protection (paladin, hellion) cancellation (sorceror) create food (paladin, shaman) know alignment (paladin) regenaration (shaman) remove curse (paladin, shaman) flamestrike (paladin, shaman) spear of faith (paladin) sanctuary (paladin, shaman) summon (sorceror, necromancer) enchant armor (sorceror) enchant weapon (sorceror) heal (shaman) exorcism (shaman) gate (sorceror) holy word (paladin) durability passive: above average HPs, shield block, heavy armor bonus (faith-dependant) active: armor, bless, magical vestment, protection, sanctuary, heal utility anti-maledictions, faerie fire, holy word, frenzy, enchant, brew damage flamestrike, spear of faith, harm, holy word Quote: Paladin: call armor bolt of glory bless (priest, shaman) refresh (priest, shaman) frenzy (priest, shaman) cure deafness (priest, shaman) cure blindness (priest, shaman) protection (priest, hellion) create food (priest, shaman) know alignment (priest) remove curse (priest, shaman) flamestrike (priest, shaman) spear of faith (priest) sanctuary (priest, shaman) holy word (priest) durability passive: above average HPs, heavy armor bonus, shield block, dodge, parry active: disarm, cure light, armor, protection, sanctuary utility anti-maledictions, frenzy, holy word, rescue damage passive: combat casting active: flamestrike, spear of faith, bolt of glory, holy word Quote: Hellion: cleave intimidate hellfire domination hide (rogue, halfling) combat casting (hellion) cause light (necromancer) curse (shaman, necromancer) blindness (shaman, necromancer) chill touch (necromancer) deafness (shaman, necromancer) cause serious (necromancer) poison (necromancer) protection (priest, paladin) weaken (shaman, necromancer) plague (necromancer) shield (necromancer, sorceror) cause critical (necromancer) rift (necromancer) durability passive: above average HPs, heavy armor bonus, shield block, dodge, parry, intimidate active: protection, shield utility maledictions, domination damage passive: combat casting active: cause light, chill touch, hellfire, domination Quote: Shaman: spirit doll spirit aura call lightning seance spirit horde voodoo brew (priest, warlock) bless (priest, paladin) refresh (priest, paladin) frenzy (priest, paladin) cure deafness (priest, paladin) cure blindness (priest, paladin) create food (priest, paladin) remove curse (priest, paladin) flamestrike (priest, paladin) sanctuary (priest, paladin) curse (hellion, necromancer) blindness (hellion, necromancer) deafness (hellion, necromancer) weaken (hellion, necromancer) sleep (sorceror, necromancer) raise dead (priest, warlock) cure poison (priest, warlock) regenaration (priest) dispel magic (sorceror, necromancer) control weather (warlock) heal (priest) exorcism (priest) durability passive: above average HPs, shield block, dodge active: armor, bless, sanctuary, spirit aura, heal utility maledictions, anti-maledictions, spirit horde, spirit doll, dispel magic, frenzy, brew damage flamestrike, spirit aura, call lightning, voodoo Quote: Bard: dance tumbling lore persuade songs disguise (rogue, scout) pick lock (rogue) plant (rogue) durability passive: below average HPs, dodge, parry active: dance, tumbling, disarm, protection, healing, antimagic, sleep, silence, countersongs utility trip, persuade, disarm, healing, dancing, magic, antimagic, sleep, silence, scrolls damage c major, songs of death, f minor, b augmented sixth Quote: Rogue: (dual) backstab steal peek circle stab hamstring hide (hellion, halfling) disguise (bard, scout) durability passive: below average HPs, shield block, dodge, parry active: trip, disarm utility trip, disarm, hamstring, scrolls damage (dual) backstab, circle stab, hamstring Quote: Scout: fletch tame camouflage herbalism skin pathfinding rapid shot snare ambush butcher (barbarian) disguise (rogue, bard) tracking (barbarian, warlock) durability passive: below average HPs, shield block, parry, dodge active: herbalism, tame utility herbalism, tame, rescue, pathfinding, tracking, snare, skin damage tame, rapid shot, ambush Quote: Sorceror: change sex magic missile ventriloquate color spray enlarge shrink giant strength acid blast mirror image understand airy water charm person etherealform haste tongues polymorph depetrification petrification final strike scribe (necromancer) fly (warlock, necromancer) cancellation (priest) dispel magic (shaman, necromancer) mass invis (warlock) enchant armor (priest) enchant weapon (priest) sleep (shaman, necromancer) summon (priest, necromancer) shield (hellion, necromancer) spell ward (necromancer) teleport (necromancer) gate (priest) durability passive: lowest HPs, dodge active: armor, fly, sleep, mirror image, shield, charm person, etherealform, spell ward utility fly, dispel magic, cancellation, charm person, polymorph, haste, giant strength, enchant, scribe damage charm person, magic missile, color spray, acid blast, petrification, final strike Quote: Warlock: burning hands create spring healing rays lightning bolt resist elements conjure elemental fireball stone skin earthquake ironguard chain lightning cone of cold magma spray tracking (barbarian, scout) brew (priest, shaman) water breathing (shaman) control weather (shaman) mass invis (sorceror) breath of life (priest, shaman) durability passive: lowest HPs, dodge acitve: fly, healing rays, stoneskin, ironguard, conjure elemental utility fly, conjure elemental, tracking, brew damage burning hands, shocking grasp, lightning bolt, conjure elemental, fireball, earthquake, chain lightning, cone of cold, magma spray Quote: Necromancer:
death shroud animate dead feeblemind fear vampiric touch control undead energy drain finger of death scribe (sorceror) cause light (hellion) blindness (hellion, shaman) chill touch (hellion) deafness (hellion, shaman) fly (sorceror, warlock) cause serious (hellion) sleep (shaman, sorceror) weaken (hellion, shaman) curse (hellion, shaman) poison (hellion, shaman) slow (shaman, sorceror) shield (hellion, sorceror) teleport (sorceror) cause critical (hellion) dispel magic (shaman, sorceror) plague [i](hellion) summon (priest, sorceror) rift (hellion) spell ward (sorceror) durability passive: lowest HPs, dodge active: armor, animate dead, fly, sleep, shield, fear, control undead, spell ward utility maledictions, animate dead, control undead, dispel magic, scribe damage cause light, chill touch, animate dead, vampiric touch, energy drain, finger of death My goal here was to highlight, in a quantitative manner, some of the issues of variety and the weakness of specific skills and spells, and how access to other skillsets via brewing and scribing masks some of the inherent class imbalances. Take, for example, mercenaries. They're the staple warrior class in SK, but with their skillset, they lack any real damage-dealing capabilities. Blitzkrieg is unusable during combat , and the damage from kick is strictly inferior to the physical and strategical advantage provided by bash. However, specialize and fourth attack provide a strong potential that is unleashed when giant strength, frenzy, haste, and other buffs are applied, bringing them up to the level of damage that is expected of them. Without these abilities, they are, at best, marginally superior to most other classes, and certainly inferior to their fighter counterpart, barbarians. Examining rogues is also worthwhile. Even with the utility provided by access to scrolls, the class is in dire need of diversity. Their lack of solo survivability relegates them to a purely support role. While they fit this roll fairly well, they provide little more than some extra damage and the often unnecessary assurance that your opponent won't be running away. This was discussed not too long ago in a thread by Juggs, but I feel like it's worth mentioning. A look at shamans shows that they are indeed fine and dandy regardless of voodoo - good survivability and strong utility, with decent damage based the situation. Hellions may appear to be as weak as some have said in recent weeks, based on a look at the list, especially in comparison to paladins. But, it's important to remember the level of synergy between a hellion's abilities, and the amount of versatility provided by the skillset. Paladins are much more geared for survivability and support, while hellions have superior strategical utility and a better control over how and where they can make use of their stronger damage abilities. Anyways, just some info for thought. Let me know if I made any mistakes. |
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| Author: | Cyra [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
mercenaries have fourth attack, enhanced damage and specialize. If that doesn't increase or give them the ability to do damage then I don't know what does. Try taking a paladin or rogue up in straight combat with a mercenary. They just don't compete in straight out melee. Your viewpoint is just awkward, that's all. |
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| Author: | Salandarin [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I didn't include enhanced damage because every class that has third attack, also has enhanced damage. In essence, you're talking about one extra attack, if you've got the speed for it. Spec plays a part in getting that speed, but even then, you aren't guaranteed to be making use of your fourth possible strike. I'm not saying they can't do damage. I just think they're really lacking in adaptability and diversity, and because of that, are not as strong as they should be. Once you've got your spec laid out, there's nothing too complicated about how to fight, or how to prepare, as shown by the sheer lack of abilities. They don't adapt to various situations, except in how they choose their weapons. Damaging abilities are what's needed to add strategy and thought to mercenary combat. |
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| Author: | three_sixteen [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Funny, I didn't know rogues were melee combat characters. I always thought they were the gank and run away type. I guess that's just me. |
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| Author: | Muktar [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Sorry, 2 atks for shamans + 0 dmg buffs = crap for dmg. Everyone of the fighter class are better at tanking. They are alright at healing. Making them the second choice for healing if there isn't a priest. Voodoo makes or breaks the class. Which is sad. There is at least 3-4 classes that does whatever a shaman can do but better. |
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| Author: | Syndal [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Yeah, too bad nobody can single-handedly own a group's face like a shaman can.
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| Author: | Muktar [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Syndal wrote: Yeah, too bad nobody can single-handedly own a group's face like a shaman can.
Maybe back in the day when SA stacked with shield and did damage before the reduction. |
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| Author: | Syndal [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
It's called join a Tribunal, get a guard, buy a pet, and keep the weather in your country perfect. 
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| Author: | Kin [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I feel barbarians need a bit of tweaking with say fist damage or possibly more available claws. As it stands, any swashie or merc with mastered Eparry kinda negates the point of a barb with mastered Wild fighting as they can still parry the blows, and quite a good chunk of em. Also, berserk and fury perhaps need a bit of tweaking. For example, berserk gives a bonus to weapon damage and accuracy i believe while Fury, which you learn later, gives a bonus to weapon speed and willpower as well. Fury however, once learned, is quite tedious to train. You have to be pretty lucky for it to actually kick in and even then getting a skill improve can be rare. I remember it took me about..I think anywheres from a week or so on my barb just to learn it to very good so I could advance train it. Basically, I believe berserk alone should give the bonus to weapon speed, damage and probability to hit. Fury should just give a greater bonus and heal. |
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| Author: | Salandarin [ Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Muktar, that was such a narrow-minded examination of the skillset that I can't help but think you're joking. Shamans don't get enhanced damage - that's basically as obvious a sign as you can get, that they aren't dealing primary melee damage. Call lightning is a situational spell that can deal strong damage. They're not designed to be strong damage no matter how you look at it, it's like complaining that sorcerors can't tank. Spirit aura, combined with sanctuary, dodge, and shield block makes for very decent tanking, especially as a high-DEX class such as a sprite. Aside from all their other maledictions - which they have more of than any class except necromancers - they have free use of frenzy, which can instantly rip the face off any caster. Why you say they're a second choice for healing is beyond me - a heal is a heal is a heal. They don't have mass healing, but that's almost useless anyways. None of their strengths rely on voodoo. |
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