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Regeneration
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Author:  Salandarin [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Regeneration

Cyra wrote:
Also, what kind of nightmare would it be to make hp, mana and moves regenerate at oh say, 1 point per second (outside of combat) instead of using a system that makes you wait for more or less a minute to regenerate anything?

That'd be a damn good nightmare.

Some thoughts I've had rolling around, triggered by the above post.

Pull regeneration off the tick - ticks are ALWAYS laggy, and updating char stats only adds to the level of randomness that can spawn from the occurrence of a tick. Binding regeneration to the fast affects system is a simply superior.

Here's what I'm thinking. I have a lot of ideas, here, so I'll bullet them.

1) Most importantly, tie regen to the affects system. How many times per minute a character regens is more or less unimportant, but it should be predictable, constant, and consistent.

2) Normally, no regen should occur inside combat.

This currently happens on the tick, and throws in a level of pure chance, in combat. We've all had our share of battles where that lucky extra 5% health generated saved the day, but it's also no fun being on the other end of such a thing - it's just pure luck, and isn't a positive element to the system.

3) Meditation and accelerated healing will allow regeneration at a rate of 10% of the normal rate, during combat.

4) The normal rate of regeneration (outside of combat) should allow a character to fully heal/restore in 4 minutes when sleeping, regardless of their total pool of points. When resting, healing time is increased to 8 minutes. When standing, 16 minutes.

This is the big one. Without fast healing, trance, or endurance, a character should go from 0% -> 100% in the space of 4 minutes, regardless of how many hp/mana/move trains they have, or how much con/wis they have. That means that each regen brings back a set percentage of health, not a set value. This makes getting hp/mana trains more valuable, as you aren't punishing yourself by slowing your rate of regeneration, you're just becoming purely stronger.

5) Fast healing, trance, and endurance reduce the healing time for sleeping to 3 minutes, 6 minutes for resting, still 16 minutes for standing.

6) Resting in an inn reduces down-time by 50%. Without regenerative abilities, that time (sleeping) falls to 3 minutes, with them, 1.5 minutes. You get the idea.

All values subject to adjustment, of course.

Ideally, I think this would have a boat-load of positive effects on the game. First and foremost, far less down-time. These rates are significantly faster than what's currently employed in the game, especially if you have a large hp/mana pool. Secondly, and more importantly, regeneration would be infinitely more reliable. The guessing game as to how much longer you'll need to sleep is gone. With this, when sleeping with fast healing, you're looking at 33% of your health a minute, which boils down to about 1% every two seconds, which you can count on. As is, you can have a range of anywhere from 5-40% for what you'll regen on the tick, and there's no way to influence that number, it's just plain luck. IMO, this isn't an aspect of the game we should leave to chance.

Kind of a lot of ideas, but I've been brewing it over for a while. It all hinges on whether or not it's technically possible for Dulrik to implement such a system, but I can't particularly think of why it wouldn't be.

Thoughts?

EDIT (8/10): Added my later response for great justice, and also ease of reading.

Salandarin wrote:
GosUNooB wrote:
Quote:
As is, you can have a range of anywhere from 5-40% for what you'll regen on the tick, and there's no way to influence that number, it's just plain luck. IMO, this isn't an aspect of the game we should leave to chance.


What character do you play, and when do you plan on deleting him?Mastered fast healing/meditation/trance will never leave you up only 5% on a tick if you're sleeping or resting, and yes, if it isn't mastered, you can't control it. That's because it isn't mastered yet.

As I see it, there are two gripes here: Tick lag, and downtime. The downtime won't get changed dramatically if you ask me, and shouldn't be changed too dramatically. Just making the game all around -that- much easier will just make it ridiculous. The numbers that you are throwing around seem very overpowered.


I've played three different priests, all ranging from level 46-50, mastered trance/meditation, and the regeneration situation has been the same every time. Holding NO spells, I have regained 5% mana, repeatedly. Sure, it doesn't happen a lot, but it DOES happen. It's random - that's the main aspect of the current system that I don't like. On all of these priests, however, I had very few mana trains - a GM priest with maxed mana will VERY often see 5-10% regens, even while sleeping, in an inn.

It's not about lag. I never said this would decrease lag, but that it would decrease the number of things occurring on any given tick. I don't like the thought and feel of having so many events happening during one giant lag spike, especially when they're as random as they are. I doubt the lag spike would be any less giant, and that's not what I'm trying to address here. As for the potential of an overall increase in lag, that's pretty hypothetical, and it's not something you or I can make speculation on, because we don't know how the code is set up and what causes the system the most strain. That said, I really doubt regeneration would be that intensive at all.

To shorten it up, my main concerns are:

The randomness of the current system, a lack of predictability. I feel HP/MP/PE regeneration should be linear and static across all levels and classes, modified only by specific skills, spells, resting states, and inns. Even if regeneration isn't tied to fast affects, this is possible with the current system.

Excessive downtimes. If you max out hp or mana trains, you're looking at pretty slow regeneration times - on the low end, four or five minutes, sometimes over ten minutes on the high end. It's all random, though. Much of this problem is solved in the correction of the first. It's also quite possible that my numbers are overpowered, but they're completely open to change, they just happen to be what I prefer. Even if the times are lengthened to match the current situation, we'd be better off.

These are both issues that can be addressed without using fast affects, so why do I think they should be tied?

Firstly, to reduce the supremacy of the tick in the feel of the game. I hate basing my IC actions around the very OOC nature of the tick - a lot of what you do revolves on when the tick is coming, and I always feel like I'm in a lurch when I'm waiting for it to arrive, especially with the somewhat random nature of its timing (which is good thing, as it means we can't know exactly when it comes). In the same way that the fast affects system reduced that lame chance for a tick to arrive in the second or third round of combat to remove your dirt kick or taunt, placing regeneration on the same timer means there's less chance involved in every encounter, but also makes the whole game feel that much more streamlined. Essentially, you get to stop worrying about when the tick is coming, and there is nothing not awesome about that.

Secondly (and of a much less significant nature), to enable true in-combat mana regeneration through meditation. Casters currently have no way of regenerating mana in combat beyond the slight bonus from meditation, while warriors, whom rely on HP, have myriad ways to regenerate health through potions, herbs, and spells. Allowing meditation to regenerate mana on a consistent basis throughout combat gives casters more ability to improvise and more strength over longer battles, but also reduces downtime.

Decreases the negative effects of randomness in the system, increasing the predictability in behavior of our characters, and making the game feel more streamlined. That's what it's about.

Author:  Morovik [ Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:39 pm ]
Post subject: 

I like this idea.

Author:  Cyra [ Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:36 am ]
Post subject: 

I'll actually admit this was a half-baked idea. I wouldn't get your hopes up over it, as well.

Author:  Salandarin [ Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:16 am ]
Post subject: 

it's about 1 in a 100 of any ideas that actually go anywhere. i've no more expectation that this would stick than any of my other ones.

Author:  sorius [ Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:07 am ]
Post subject: 

I think this idea would really increase the fun of the game, but you would probably need to increase the amount of time while hungry and thirsty

Author:  Likar [ Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:26 am ]
Post subject: 

1 point per second? That's way too fast. So, outside of combat, after a big fight when everyone is all spent, they'll go at it again in a minute in a half?

Author:  Salandarin [ Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:59 am ]
Post subject: 

Likar wrote:
1 point per second? That's way too fast. So, outside of combat, after a big fight when everyone is all spent, they'll go at it again in a minute in a half?

Read points 4, 5, and 6 carefully. Only if they're sleeping in an inn with mastered fast healing/endurance/trance. Remember that regen also wouldn't start until your pulse stops racing, so that adds about a minute, as well.

Author:  GosUNooB [ Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:16 am ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
As is, you can have a range of anywhere from 5-40% for what you'll regen on the tick, and there's no way to influence that number, it's just plain luck. IMO, this isn't an aspect of the game we should leave to chance.


What character do you play, and when do you plan on deleting him?Mastered fast healing/meditation/trance will never leave you up only 5% on a tick if you're sleeping or resting, and yes, if it isn't mastered, you can't control it. That's because it isn't mastered yet.

As I see it, there are two gripes here: Tick lag, and downtime. The downtime won't get changed dramatically if you ask me, and shouldn't be changed too dramatically. Just making the game all around -that- much easier will just make it ridiculous. The numbers that you are throwing around seem very overpowered.

Here's my question though: How is tying things to the fast effects system going to reduce lag? I would think it would only make the game that much more laggy. Think about it: It lags on the tick because it's updating every characters/NPCs HP, ME, PE, status affects, and the like. You're suggesting that some of these values be updated about 40 times as often, by tying them to the fast affects system. I fail to see how this is going to help lag.

Perhaps, if you were to tie regeneration of PCs to the fast affects system, and have regeneration for NPCs remain as is, if that's possible, it would accomplish what you're looking for, but I think that even if this change goes through, it won't be something that affects the current balance of things as greatly as you hope.

Author:  Salandarin [ Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:11 pm ]
Post subject: 

GosUNooB wrote:
Quote:
As is, you can have a range of anywhere from 5-40% for what you'll regen on the tick, and there's no way to influence that number, it's just plain luck. IMO, this isn't an aspect of the game we should leave to chance.


What character do you play, and when do you plan on deleting him?Mastered fast healing/meditation/trance will never leave you up only 5% on a tick if you're sleeping or resting, and yes, if it isn't mastered, you can't control it. That's because it isn't mastered yet.

As I see it, there are two gripes here: Tick lag, and downtime. The downtime won't get changed dramatically if you ask me, and shouldn't be changed too dramatically. Just making the game all around -that- much easier will just make it ridiculous. The numbers that you are throwing around seem very overpowered.


I've played three different priests, all ranging from level 46-50, mastered trance/meditation, and the regeneration situation has been the same every time. Holding NO spells, I have regained 5% mana, repeatedly. Sure, it doesn't happen a lot, but it DOES happen. It's random - that's the main aspect of the current system that I don't like. On all of these priests, however, I had very few mana trains - a GM priest with maxed mana will VERY often see 5-10% regens, even while sleeping, in an inn.

It's not about lag. I never said this would decrease lag, but that it would decrease the number of things occurring on any given tick. I don't like the thought and feel of having so many events happening during one giant lag spike, especially when they're as random as they are. I doubt the lag spike would be any less giant, and that's not what I'm trying to address here. As for the potential of an overall increase in lag, that's pretty hypothetical, and it's not something you or I can make speculation on, because we don't know how the code is set up and what causes the system the most strain. That said, I really doubt regeneration would be that intensive at all.

To shorten it up, my main concerns are:

The randomness of the current system, a lack of predictability. I feel HP/MP/PE regeneration should be linear and static across all levels and classes, modified only by specific skills, spells, resting states, and inns. Even if regeneration isn't tied to fast affects, this is possible with the current system.

Excessive downtimes. If you max out hp or mana trains, you're looking at pretty slow regeneration times - on the low end, four or five minutes, sometimes over ten minutes on the high end. It's all random, though. Much of this problem is solved in the correction of the first. It's also quite possible that my numbers are overpowered, but they're completely open to change, they just happen to be what I prefer. Even if the times are lengthened to match the current situation, we'd be better off.

These are both issues that can be addressed without using fast affects, so why do I think they should be tied?

Firstly, to reduce the supremacy of the tick in the feel of the game. I hate basing my IC actions around the very OOC nature of the tick - a lot of what you do revolves on when the tick is coming, and I always feel like I'm in a lurch when I'm waiting for it to arrive, especially with the somewhat random nature of its timing (which is good thing, as it means we can't know exactly when it comes). In the same way that the fast affects system reduced that lame chance for a tick to arrive in the second or third round of combat to remove your dirt kick or taunt, placing regeneration on the same timer means there's less chance involved in every encounter, but also makes the whole game feel that much more streamlined. Essentially, you get to stop worrying about when the tick is coming, and there is nothing not awesome about that.

Secondly (and of a much less significant nature), to enable true in-combat mana regeneration through meditation. Casters currently have no way of regenerating mana in combat beyond the slight bonus from meditation, while warriors, whom rely on HP, have myriad ways to regenerate health through potions, herbs, and spells. Allowing meditation to regenerate mana on a consistent basis throughout combat gives casters more ability to improvise and more strength over longer battles, but also reduces downtime.

Decreases the negative effects of randomness in the system, increasing the predictability in behavior of our characters, and making the game feel more streamlined. That's what it's about.

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