Shattered Kingdoms

I'm a damn genius. I just figured out how to actually make necros worthwhile and still keep in line with Dulrik's wants for them.

FIRST, remove dispel magic from affecting control undead, raise the concentration cost of control up 50% THEN:

Instead of using concentration to balance them out, they should have a natural negative energy pool they draw from that increases as they level. The various undead they raise take from the pool.

It doesn't use up valuable INT and the undead don't drop in !magic (like a warlock's elemental and they never used to), but they use up a certain number of points from a pool. The pool is affected by three things:

1) Int
2) Cha
3) Art

Each undead takes from the pool, now let me run some fake numbers to give you an idea. Each undead costs a certain type, for example:

skeletons are 1, ghouls 2, zombies 3, wights 4, and wraiths 5 (for example), so a necromancer of level 50 with 23 int, 20 cha, and 8 art would have a pool of lets say 50.

He could raise an army of 10 wraiths, or 25 ghouls. The number of undead is directly dependent on their strength. So no more 60 man armies, BUT, a necromancer doesn't suffer for walking around with a full group either.

Now, the necromancer doesn't see the actual physical numbers, but what they will see is each time they raise a new body they get an additional message that gives them feedback about their remaining percentage left.

Example:

You utter the words, 'animate dead'
A wraith stumbles up etc.
You feel your link to the negative plane fresh and pulsing. (>90%)
You feel your link to the negative plane to be quite strong. (>80%)

Etc etc

You feel your link to the negative plane about to sever! (5%)


Now! To get into why this is a good idea and why this will reassert the necromancer back to a position of equality:

1) A necromancer can now have more refined tactics when it comes to animating undead. They have a set limit and they now have to rely on controls for the rest of the 'horde'. At the same time, they can choose to use combinations of control/animates along with spell casting, instead of one or the other. This will make them have to choose between o all and c spell.

2) Using control still costs less than it used to, so controls (which are typically more desirable) are still employable WITH animates, instead of being either or. This makes them really the same in power, but it gives the element of surprise to the enemy and now an opponent has to fight a necro with more than just c 'holy word' spammed from behind a pet.

3) Since dispel magic no longer affects controls, it will give a big boost to the class. Now dispel is used to drop his animates and cancel to rid him of his controls. No longer is it a 1 hit victory against necromancers.

4) Bolt of glory still face-rapes undead. So they still have to be very wary around paladins.

5) If the necromancer DIES, the controls break loose and the animates drop. It still means the necromancer must protect themselves at all costs.

6) Energy drain can remain as is and still be useful.

7) Recited/wand used animates still affect the link to the underworld. As such, no one but a necromancer may now animate undead, making the use of animates strictly for a necromancer, giving a 'resurrection-like' boost to the class' desirability to play.

I recognize this will take Dulrik a smidge of coding to accomplish, but I think this is the answer. He'll have to balance it himself, but I really feel this is the solution and will revive this class.

Eh, this idea isn't bad but I'm not convinced its better than the current system. In particular, I like the animate int-drain on necromancers because it gives a good reason to play a delf necro. Also, I think necromancers are more or less balanced.

I don't find this horribly off, however why nerf necros again? If any class needs rebalancing it would be Warlocks. Lets pick on that class for a change.

Depending on how this was implemented, it could be a huge buff, or a massive nerf. I'd have to see solid numbers, but I think Dulrik can look over enough necro PK logs to figure out what the numbers should be exactly.

Personally, I feel that most any class (note: I didn't say all) should be able to be at least competitive with most other classes. If implemented wrong, this would force a paladin/priest to have to be around for a fight, because the necro would just overwhelm any medium sized (or smaller) group.

Its definitely a good idea, but it really depends on how it was implemented...

sleeper

That's why I want Dulrik to do the numbers balancing.

The way I see it, now necros have way too many 'i win' against buttons. They should be a real force to reckon with when well prepared (they are a very intensive prep class) and that prep time needs to translate into power.

If Dulrik does it properly, it should force necros to use mixed animate/controls and have to be super-careful in their selection of animates, instead of just hordes of wraiths.

I think this is the solution we need. It also does give a -huge- boost to deep-elf necros with the raising of control undead concentration and so they will be one of the few who can carry 2-3 controls and still cast spells.

To many I win buttons against a necro ? It has the same number of I wins against it as every other class. Yet they have more escape methods than every other class other than sorceror (they actually have more than a white or grey aura sorceror) and more killing ability than every other class. The only reason I would support more power to a necromancer is if it became a RP restricted class. As in you needed Imm to OK before you rolled one. Then the idea of the necromancer being a super terror Grakus seems to wish they where could be implemented because the players would have to keep their actions in check.

They do not. They have the most.

Currently the things that are 'I win' against a necromancer are:

holy word
dispel magic
cancellation
feeblemind
slow (seriously, try it sometime, bye bye necro)
chain lightning (undead + necro = dead undead in most cases)
any ranged combat (no defense or counter naturally)
bolt of glory (it's insane against them)
deafness (o all etc)
backstab


I can go on and on, really. The only 'defense' they have to escape is zapping a [REDACTED] ethereal wand.

Tons of classes can go ethereal. It's not good enough. A necro /must/ be superior to every single class on SK with a semi-decent prep time. No other class 'must' be hated so much by so many factions, not even hellion/paladins.

Also, being diabolic alignment means they must betray friends. If they don't, they should be cursed levels for it till they start. So they need to be able to be solo most of the time.

I really think the change I mentioned above will keep them as a powerhouse on their own, without making them uber. Some see it as a nerf, and I understand that, but I don't. I see it as better version of what Dulrik has already done.

We should be stressing tactics here, folks.

Holy word is not an I win it is at best a force you to run away and regroup.
Dispel magic same as above.
Cancellation see above.
Feeblemind doesnt help against a necro with scrolls
Slow ... has less effect on a necro than any warrior class not to mention the necro has access to the counterspell(s) to deal with it.
Chain lightning. Once you have more than one NPC in a room then the more NPCs you have the better therefore necromancers are better off than other classes.
Ethereal stops ranged combat easy with the current strength of some range combat combos it is an issue for all classes including mercs.
BoG I hear a lot of mixed reports about BoG. Three is about the number I hear for a low HP necro with no MP. Three rounds is enough for a necro to deal with any single pesky paladin in combat if they play well. Thats not mentioning the other defenses against it. Ranging from Spell ward to hide/invis.
Deafness and order all. If you have three or more undead chances are one is still going to work and the others will join in. Hardly like you have lost when your undead are still attacking your foes.
Backstab there is a very easy way around this I dont think it rates a real mention but I will mention stone skin as one way.

None of these are true I win they are someone is using a tactic against me. It is not like an FoD which if you fail the save you are dead end of story. They are all tactics which have a counter. The only BS I win spell a necromancer is likely to have to face several times in a row and I can understand it being BS is voodoo.

Diabolic alignment does not mean you "Must" betray friends. The very reason they should not be made so they can do it and get away with it is because what of the large numbers of necros that dont betray friends.

A naked necromancer can have similar power to a full enchanted necromancer means they can get by solo. The only problem with necromancer is getting back to life. Now reincarnate doesnt actually take Con necromancers can use this. Summon and FoD I hear is good leveling not to mention scribing.

Necromancers do not have it as bad as you think Grakus. They just dont have it as good as they use too.

feeble mind causes you to drop all undead. So yes, it is a 1 hit I win spell.

Look, because you play a class that fights necros, doesn't mean you have to agree to them being useless.

They are not played as it is because they do, in fact, -suck-.

Anyone who disagrees with this only as to look at how beethiok got his [REDACTED] -handed- to him on a daily basis. he only ever won fights against solo players who weren't prepared or are known as generally the lower end of the pk ladder.

And yes, diabolics -----must----- betray. They are not supposed to be rational. They are -not- supposed to make always the best choices for themselves. That's a miscreant.

Silmar, when was the last time you played a necromancer? You have some seriously mistaken views of how and what they can do these days.

Dispel magic WILL break a necromancer. It will drop both death shroud and control undead, meaning the necro gets eaten by his own control.

Cancellation means the same thing, if the necro has animates and can't afford to hold death shroud/control/animates.

Feeblemind leaves a necro without int mods defenseless. It WILL eat a necromancers without enough int mods to counter it, because it will drop almost every animate they have, as well as any controls, as WELL as death shroud. Scrolls mean nothing when you're alone and getting owned by an uncontrolled undead who automatically attacks you before anyone else in the room. (Taunt is the same way, as is sleep except you can't even mod against sleep.)

Slow has only one counter spell, and the damage is likely already done by the time you can pull out that not-likely-to-be-immediately-accessible magical device to counter it.

Your estimate of chain lightning's effectiveness against a necro and its undead is way off. I know for a fact (very recently) that one cast of chain lightning decimated a very well prepared necromancer's forces, enough so that it would have been an absolute joke for a few people to finish the job.

Whatever "mixed reports" you're hearing are flawed. BoG turns necromancers into ground beef. Against undead, it's ridiculously common for it to one-hit them, even higher level controls.

It doesn't matter how many undead you have. If your "deafness causes you to mispronounce your orders" none of them respond. It's just that simple. Deafness against the undead (which have essentially zero saves to resist with) totally screws you over as well, and it's low concentration time means that two shaman/rival necros can shut down an entire pack of necromancer minions in three rounds or less.

Diabolic alignment absolutely does mean that betrayal of "friends" should be routine and done without the slightest hesitation or rational reason. Diabolics and long-term associations should be so rare as to be next to non-existant, wherever the associations are not subjugated and completely controlled by the diabolic and aimed precisely at their goals.

Oh, and as to the etherealform option? The application of that two-tick wand is extremely limited. Sometimes it will help you escape if you can zap it fast enough, but the duration on it is so short that in no way does it represent an effective means of defense against things like ranged attacks.

I don't necessarily agree with Grakus' plan to balance the class, but Silmar, you're just flat out wrong about how "ineffective" or at least "not I Win" these things are against necromancers.