Shattered Kingdoms

It still completely defies the point that stance is for melee combat and not for casting.

Hm. I don't see anything in that description that says this is melee only. I *do* see a line that says it determines how people react to combat...which would include how a caster reacts to combat, which would be with spells.

So you want Dulrik to add the line where it says it is about physical combat so you can understand it too?

Let's do a little simple reasoning. See if you can follow along.

All classes have stance options. Stance affects how the character reacts to combat. Spell casting characters react to combat in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY WARRIORS DO, USING A DIFFERENT CONTEXT. Thus, all stance options should have legitimate pros/cons for all classes from a tactical perspective.

So if stance is meant to affect melee classes only, take stances away from casters entirely. Oh, wait, that would be COMPLETELY [REDACTED] STUPID.

If stance wasn't meant to have any effect for casters at all, there would be no penalty to casting time for a defensive stance.

Can you connect the dots on that one, Alvarro? Pretty sure it couldn't be stated any more simply. Perhaps now we can return to the nominally calm and mostly rational discussion we were having before you decided to jump in.

Since you wish to resort to flippant and stupid things like logic and reason, allow me to retort.


Mood aggressive does not make warriors attack faster, so why would it make mages cast spells faster?

It makes warriors more likely to hit and do more damage, so if you want to argue a logical point, then you should say that logicall mages should hit harder and have a slightly buffed art on mood aggressive.

however you are forgetting one key fact, mood aggressive ALREADY effects mages in -exactly- the same way as it affects warriors i.e., the mages melee attacks will hit harder and more often.

So in essence, when you are asking that mood aggressive effects spells, you are asking that mages get this -in addition- to what they already get. Ergo, you are asking that they get -more- than melee classes without spells.

now you say, but mood defensive makes us cast slower!

It also makes warriors cast slower, this goes for hellions, shaman, paladins, and any other warrior class that is in a cabal. So it already effects mages and melee classes in the exact same fashion.

No one is getting anything extra or less in this update. So stop acting like mages are getting jipped, they aren't.


and yes, faster spell times would be a huge imbalance for spellcasters, I really don't care what you think because if you think differently, you're just wrong. period. It's a horse, deal with it.

The more I think about this the more I see the casting downside to mood defensive as a necessary evil. The update is meant to affect melee combat (not just melee classes). But without the casting downside to mood defensive it acts as a buff to casters, not a tactical consideration. With this change neutral stance keeps things as is but allow a caster to use defensive stance without it being just a buff....Although without play testing I doubt there will be a real reason to use defensive stance as a spell caster.

Lei Kung

OA makes some great points (not sure how his points are viewed as QQ, either), but, having gone back and read:


I see that the point of stance is to provide physical advantages and disadvantages. There's a nerf to casting in the defensive, but not a buff, and no affect to casting in aggressive. There's no trade-off for casting benefits, you JUST get the debuff, that's it. That means that stance is more about the physical benefits, than the mental. That is to say, the only motivation for people to switch stances should be physical. If a battlepriest wants that defensive bonus, he doesn't get it for free, just like everyone else.

The only real solution would be Cyra's idea. That is, not just to slap on a casting buff for aggressive, but to give more balance to it as a whole. It sounds like Dulrik wants the benefits of stance to be purely physical, though.

Barely tangential, but - another possibility would be to bring back mood (keeping stance the way it is), but revamp the whole way it's used. Something much more creative and free-form - moods wouldn't be symmetrical, but reflect a character's true psychological state. Peaceful, annoyed, depressed, restless, or any number of other possibilities, all with different trade-offs and somewhat more focused on casting capabilities. Implementation would be hard, but it sounds nifty, at first thought.

While I'm spouting ideas, there should be ways to force people into different stances. Perhaps taunt should pull a person into aggressive stance, or a rescued person would enter into a defensive stance? Maybe even new abilities?

I did mention a buff to art as opposed to a shortened casting time about two pages before Cyra, but the reduced casting time makes the most sense, imo. A small increase to art in stance aggressive, however, would be an acceptable balance to aggressive stance's penalties to casters.

EDIT: I don't think the increase to casting time in defensive stance is a bad thing. It's quite rational, and it fits perfectly in with the concept of a defensive stance. I'm not arguing that it should be taken out. I'm saying that an aggressive reaction to combat affects both spellcasting and melee attacks in those classes that have spellcasting. ESPECIALLY for those classes that rely wholly on spellcasting. A spellcaster is perfectly capable of adding focus to their casting at the cost of physical defense, again as the reduced protective ability of an aggressive stance is meant to convey.

EDIT2: Oh, and Cannibal, no it doesn't add speed to melee attacks to be in an aggressive stance. However, as a spell caster, you are taking less time to protect yourself in battle, meaning you are adding to the percentage of time that passes in a combat round where you're casting, thereby meaning the time it takes you to cast each spell as compared to the total duration of combat is lowered. Thus, a slightly reduced casting time.

I still think there should be a defensive casting stance such that it will increase your concentration so that you can't be bashed so easily but have it reduce one's dmg and speed.

My idea is full of win and the approval of the one true God of Israel.