Shattered Kingdoms

I agree, which is why I voted yes. What I mean by it not having a huge impact is that there tend to be very few instances of sorcerors using this multi-charm tactic (because of risk, lack of concentration, laziness, etc.). Therefore the impact on player experience as a whole would not be that far-reaching. Imagine what would happen if you introduced etherealform pills, though.

Sorcs would use recall potions and swashies would become more popular?

Everyone can use recall potions. What makes sorcerors so hard to kill is the fact that they're also basically immune to taunt kills.

So, uh, yes.

Also they can go ethereal and watch their charmies wreck anyone in the area, giving orders all the while. This can't be done if the sorc quaffs word.

Jhorleb, I don't know how often this tactic is used, but it still deserves a nerf. I've done it before. Ealuriel used to use it to great effect. I know Edoras uses it sometimes. I used to use the Waish + Lathron combo and it was just ridiculous.

Besides getting rid of two charmies, though, this change would keep sorcs from casting charm on PCs when they already have a charmie. That's one huge and positive effect you didn't mention. Anything that lowers the efficacy of charm person being casted on PCs is good in my book.

I concur with the notion that its not the amount of charmies that make Sorc's powerful, but their defensive abilities to get out of a pickle.

I guess I'm just amazed at the startling lack of mention of any countermeasures for sorc charms in this thread. It isn't like Lathron and Losquaty are equivalent to two fully kit out PC barbarians. They're not even close, and they have extreme weaknesses. The only reason that they might seem that way, is if you're comparing them to very sub-par PC barbarians, and (incorrectly) assuming that the only way to kill them is through physical means.

Going ethereal and chasing people around is silly. If they don't have any way to deal with you in the ethereal plane they shouldn't be fighting you already, and if they DO have a way of dealing with you in the ethereal plane, then zapping a wand and chasing them around is just asking to get owned.

Waish + Lathron isn't really that dangerous against a prepared player either. Besides the fact that now you have to give waish +10 in INT mods to have him taunt anyone and hold it, there's no chance he's going to survive a petrification scroll, or a dispel, and as soon as he gets dispelled or petrified he drops anyone he's taunting, naturally. Not to mention sanctuary makes taunting people practically impossible unless you ALSO give him +will mods in addition to the +int mods.

So to be clear, Edoras, do you think that currently, deep-elf sorcs are not OP?

I think deep-elf sorcs have the best offense and worst defense of all the possible races for sorcerer. In some cases (especially PvP), that makes them look awesome. In others, it'd be better to be a human (especially grey-aura'd), or even elf/half-elf.

Of course, it isn't like any race sorcerer can't easily become any other race to fit the current situation at the drop of a hat, so honestly, if you want the MOST OP'd combo, it'd be a grey-aura'd sorcerer who polymorphed into a deep-elf unless he was fighting paladins. But you knew that already, didn't you?


And no, I don't think that deep-elf sorcerers are OP, for the same reasons that I don't think necros are OP. There are ways to deal with sorcerers, and they're not that difficult to take advantage of. Yes, sometimes that does involve running away.

Edoras, when are you running for office?

I think that trading 2 INT points and faerie fire for the drawback of always being dark aura and getting 2-shotted by paladins to be a fair exchange.