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 Post subject: Re: Bash vs Reflex Saves
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:42 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:26 am
Posts: 423
saxifragaceae wrote:
Is this more sensible/straightforward mechanically than just upping the amount of reflex to save against those things? And reducing the critical failure rate?

I wonder if the fort and willpower saves need to be reevaluated against the types of kits easily obtainable assuming an optimistic peak player count of 25?


It is probably more sensible because of the first round factor. If saves become too hard to make, then people just start getting autoganked again when someone swarms in on them 3 on 1 out of nowhere, and we're back to the situation of nobody ever wanting to be front row and nobody ever wanting to stay logged in if a gank seems imminent. This is exacerbated by 'order all bash' making an increased difficulty of reflex saves vs. going prone essentially a nerf to melee classes instead of an improvement for them. If some impairment has to happen first before knocking the target prone becomes a high probability event, then it gives the victim a chance to escape and return with better odds. I think there is a sentiment that people want to be able to land kills in pitched battles but don't want to make it so that newbies and casuals are forever getting steamrolled in autoganks that last all of 1-3 rounds, where the victim was prone the entire time. New impairment options for melee types have the potential to strike the right balance, especially if they're the types of things that are harder for people using pets, charms, controls, elementals, etc. to take advantage of than they are for PC melee classes.


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 Post subject: Re: Bash vs Reflex Saves
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:00 pm
Posts: 8220
Location: Redwood City, California
Misses no longer suffer critical failure - next reboot.


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 Post subject: Re: Bash vs Reflex Saves
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:20 am
Posts: 226
SK Character: Leila
Thuban wrote:
It is probably more sensible because of the first round factor. If saves become too hard to make, then people just start getting autoganked again when someone swarms in on them 3 on 1 out of nowhere, and we're back to the situation of nobody ever wanting to be front row and nobody ever wanting to stay logged in if a gank seems imminent. This is exacerbated by 'order all bash' making an increased difficulty of reflex saves vs. going prone essentially a nerf to melee classes instead of an improvement for them. If some impairment has to happen first before knocking the target prone becomes a high probability event, then it gives the victim a chance to escape and return with better odds. I think there is a sentiment that people want to be able to land kills in pitched battles but don't want to make it so that newbies and casuals are forever getting steamrolled in autoganks that last all of 1-3 rounds, where the victim was prone the entire time. New impairment options for melee types have the potential to strike the right balance, especially if they're the types of things that are harder for people using pets, charms, controls, elementals, etc. to take advantage of than they are for PC melee classes.


It seems like like an improvement over the current functionality of bash/trip, though. Is dirt kicking reflex based, too?

RE: newbies and casuals getting rolled, honestly, people need to keep in mind that getting ganked for loot can be perfectly valid (the 'oh i'm a rper-only but i'm going to hold onto this limited and useful loot and cry if someone kills me for it' thing is completely asinine) and being a part of factions, cabals, and certain alignments, classes, and races are opt-ins for PvP. Faction leaders should remember their responsibility to make this clear to people they induct.

As a player primarily interested in RP and exploration, I'd still rather see any changes to mechanics to make PvP more competitive and interesting for PKers instead of protecting those newbies/casuals who make the IC choice to paint a bullseye on their forehead.


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 Post subject: Re: Bash vs Reflex Saves
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:56 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 11:00 pm
Posts: 2767
Location: Pearl Harbor, HI
SK Character: That one guy who pk'd you.
Quote:
o Affect: 'off-balance' - penalty to reflex o


What this? :sleepy:


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 Post subject: Re: Bash vs Reflex Saves
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:20 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2002 4:00 pm
Posts: 8220
Location: Redwood City, California
Glad you asked! It’s an experiment.

If you connect with an ability that could knock the target prone, but fail to knock them prone, then you will knock them off-balance instead. Off-balance is a minor reflex save penalty which stacks with itself, meaning you can continue to worsen the targets reflex until they finally get knocked prone. As this is a penalty to reflex, it also can help make it easier for reflex spells to do full damage.

This is similar to the impairment system but not exactly the same. Off-balance does not last for long unless you keep stacking the affect. Also, when the target gets up from being prone, the affect goes away and you have to start over.

Off-balance can be generated by bash, trip, gore, dig, and earthquake. There may be one or two other ways as well which I won’t mention here.

Combined with bash miss not generating a critical failure, I think this should make the bash crowd happier, hopefully without tipping back to it being too powerful. Note: An outright missed bash does not knock the target off-balance.

Please play with it for awhile (e.g. a few weeks) before attempting to provide feedback.


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 Post subject: Re: Bash vs Reflex Saves
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 11:00 pm
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Location: Pearl Harbor, HI
SK Character: That one guy who pk'd you.
Definitely noticed it being a lot easier to bash or trip people now. Interesting to see it help with reflex spells too.


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 Post subject: Re: Bash vs Reflex Saves
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:46 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:20 am
Posts: 226
SK Character: Leila
Thanks, Dulrik. It's nice to see some changes based on our feedback. Looking forward to testing this out.


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 Post subject: Re: Bash vs Reflex Saves
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:52 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:11 pm
Posts: 1068
Location: Probably Camping Losache
SK Character: Arkex, Chronis, Azoreth, Kyln
I’m pleased to see that our feedback resulted in a positive-looking change.
Thank you, Dulrik.
Bash nerf has been an issue for quite a while.
I think this is the exact change that was needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Bash vs Reflex Saves
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:43 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:22 pm
Posts: 455
Certain cabal skill is still negated pretty easy with high reflex.


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 Post subject: Re: Bash vs Reflex Saves
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:08 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:21 pm
Posts: 2506
Location: The yellow brick road
SK Character: Bran
TheX wrote:
Certain cabal skill is still negated pretty easy with high reflex.


A few cabal skills are. What's your point?


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