Shattered Kingdoms

Look my point was that scry used to exist and now functionally doesn't for shamans. You are hiding in the land of meaningless theorycrafting if you say otherwise, unless you have changed something since my first post in this thread.

I don't really care if people can scry. But you'd better expect offensive minded players to use the hell out of it if it's made available. It would definitely make rogues attractive but would do nothing to make them fun.

Still overpowered, costs money and connections for shady types to get their info, so unless you have to pay huge fees regularly just to get a roughidea where someone is, it's overpowered and doesn't fit with the class.

But your point is wrong and invalid. If you want to say I'm theorycrafting because you are posting nonfactual information, sure, whatever.



You've created a false equivalency by saying where and the scrying function you cited are the same thing. In doing so, you continue to ignore key practical and mechanical differences. They are not the same thing. Thus, even if scrying were OP, it would not mean where is OP. Where is just an idea at this point, anyway, and could be shaped or entirely discarded according to player input, but, for there to be even the shred of a possibility that the input would be considered by Dulrik, it has to be meaningful and not based on counterfactual claims or fallacious logic. That is the quickest way to get him to disregard what you have to say, which is why I encourage you to stick to facts and not conjecture, speculation, or disinformation in discussions like this.

The argument that rogues are not fun is a non-starter. People play rogues and presumably have fun doing so. They may not fit with your preferred play style, and that's fine. Different people have always preferred different classes and always will. The issue is about whether rogues could use a boost to make them more balanced and whether giving them more utility would be a good thing. Secondarily, the question is whether either or both of the proposed two abilities would be OP. You imply that you don't seem to think so by way of your "I really don't care if people can scry" response. Other respondents have said they do think one or both would be OP (and, in some cases, have proposed modifications to bring them in line). The most experienced current rogue player to chime in in this thread seems open to the idea of these abilities, perhaps with modification, and to the idea of improved roguish utility.

No matter how you dress it up, scry used to be available via the item I brought up and is now functionally unavailable via said item. Even if you can show it is theoretically usable by looking at the code, nobody seems to be able to pull it off in game.

Also, "Factual evidence" seems like a silly standard to be held to in a game where you go out of your way to disguise the mechanics from players, and where it's a punishable offense to discuss game info on the officials. That's why I use words like functionally, theoretically, etc.

Finally, don't get stuck in the little details of how your idea differs from scry. Back up to the big picture. If you make any scry-esque ability, it will be both of the following:
1. No use in combat therefore no added fun to combat
2. Either useless, or heavily used in support of very aggressive players

But hey, these are just, like, my opinions, man...

The problem with 'Where' as written, would be that it would likely just make the lives of less 'savvy' players completely miserable. People actually concerned about PK would quickly learn to work around it (by avoiding common areas which is a negative thing for the game that Dulrik and staff has repeatedly tried to reduce, via condensing the number of inns/etc). This would actively give incentive to completely avoid cities, as someone could simply gate to a gate target, or enter the first room of the city, hit 'where' and then see where you are.

Would it make the rogue class "better"? Yes. For the few active PKers left who want to kill people.

Would it make them more fun? Give any reason to have them in your group for PvE besides "need lockpick plz"? I personally don't think so.

Stealth + Where combined just really seem like they'd make the class the reigning kings of "killing newbies and making them miserable".

Rogues need more PvE options, not PvP, IMO.

Agreed.

What about something like this?
Dash/Shadow Step (whatever you want to call it) - allows a rogue to move two spaces in a direction, bypassing the middle space.
No creature in the middle zone notices (PC or NPC), though may trigger a barbarians alertness.
The rogue would get a visual of the middle and end room, so they could relay information.
Only usable if the rogue is hidden and sneaking already.

Or a Listen skill, only usable at doors, gates, or an area entrance.
Allowing them to pick up (depending on skill) how many creatures, and possibly a few names (or adjectives) of those within.

Would you say rogues are good enough in PvP, then? What types of PvE options would make them more versatile and balanced? Are there any utility skills they could get that would help in both? I have considered some defensive skills that could make them useful to have in a group, such as:

divert - The rogue can divert an attacker targeting him or her to another viable target it the same formation. So, say the rogue were on the second rank and being hit by a blue Fytrysk. He or she could use divert to make the Fytrysk switch targets to anyone on the first or second rank. Sort of like a reverse rescue but, unlike rescue, it wouldn't change the formation. It would be more versatile than tumble, but, unlike tumble, it couldn't be used when prone.

Another more vanilla but still useful skill could be developed based on suggestions like this:



evade - The rogue has a chance to avoid damage altogether instead of taking half damage on a save vs. AoE spells and breath weapons if the rogue succeeds on the save then succeeds on an evade check. That would be useful against fireballs, gas breath, flame strikes, a certain cabal spell, etc. Gas breaths still seem to be among the biggest wreckers in PvE, so that could come in handy. It would offer some marginal benefit in PvP, though the AoE spells don't tend to be the most dangerous. The alternative is it could apply just to reflex saves, not specifically to AoE spells, which means some AoE spells would not be subject to evasion.

It's hardly a silly standard to require accurate, factual input in order to assess changes to the game.



Regarding point 1, it is, in a sense, just another form of preparation. My impression from reading the forums is that many players have mixed feelings about the nature and value that preparation has and should have. Brewing a potion or scribing a scroll is no fun, but it can be fun to use the potion or scroll in combat to help you win. Likewise, using this rogue skill to find an enemy may not be that fun, but it can lead to a fun PvP engagement. I agree with point 2 that it will be more heavily used by aggressive players. But, in the context of PvP, you can say that about literally every skill and spell, especially in the case of information-related skills and spells; the game is just heavily tilted in favor of aggressive players in PvP. A where skill for rogues would probably still not be as good for finding an enemy as locate object would, and both are much less powerful than a direct scry that you can use from anywhere to pinpoint anyone anywhere in the game. It just adds one more class to the mix in terms of finding targets, and does it in a mechanically different way than other classes do.

I would be game to tone it down to just return who is in the same area without giving more specific information such as the room name. That would put it closer to the level of something like the track skill.

Do you envision this basically returning the same information as though they were standing in the room and typed 'look'? Instead of invisible and hidden creatures potentially not being detected, should sneaking creatures not be detected? Would you really want to limit this to doors, gates, and area entrances, or do you think it would be a nice PvE boon to be able to use it to listen in areas of darkness to see if anything is in the adjacent room? It would be a great way to get around in the Wastelands faster, for instance, if the rogue could detect what is in the next room even if it's dark outside.

It's really hard to weigh a rogue's PvP ability. Strictly speaking, on paper, without looking at factors beyond their skillset, they're actually pretty good. Backstab can and will one shot people, including adventurer classes. Circle stab can easily do 30-50%+ of a squishy's health. A backstab and couple circles can even kill warriors in the span of what, 3 rounds?

In a perfect world, where equal sized groups were meeting to PK somewhere like Teron, rogues would IMO be fairly good, since you could potentially be getting off backstabs to start fights, etc.

The thing is that never happens, you're fighting in cities with guards, bounty NPCs are spawning every time you move, people are shooting ranged weapons, and you basically won't ever get to use backstab. In practice, once a rogue is outlawed in your kingdom, you basically never have to worry about them killing you, ever again.

Nevermind if somebody put a pet/guard/whatever behind them. People can also get stone skin fairly easy. Warlocks can brew it, there are wands and staves and scripts of it, and this basically neuters a Rogue's entire skillset unless they have one of the very few energy material w/ magic damage backstab weapons in the game. Then even if you do have one of those, you have to worry about if it's a type of magic damage your target is resistant to. And hope it's one of the 2-handed backstab weapons. Also hope your target isn't spamming 'c cause light self' once every 2 minutes or something similar to keep their pulse racing (maybe this was fixed while I was away?). Etc etc, and the issues from the other paragraph.

Basically, the stars have to align for a rogue to get to use their main 2 abilities (backstab, circlestab) to any real degree of effectiveness.

The closest in-game comparison I can think of, is to Hellions with Cleave. Cleave is amazing and has the potential to one-shot a target. But a hellion has a multitude of options for other things to be doing in combat to make themselves useful besides hoping to get off a cleave. Rogue is....backstab, circle, maybe hamstring. Occasionally throw in a recite, I guess? But a Hellion is still hitting things with a halberd/etc while casting. A rogue is generally not in melee range to be getting hits, and any time spent reciting is time not circlestabbing the pets/etc in the back row. 'But but! You just said circlestab is borderline useless!' It really is, but...reciting isn't all that much better of an option for them. And if you were going to do that, you could be a bard/mage.

Rogues are a "loner" class in terms of what they can do and the sort of PvP fights they should be engaging in, but they have nowhere near the capabilities of the other "loner" classes, such as Necro/Sorc/etc.

Rogues are very scary. When you have no reason to expect them to want to kill you.

For years and years, the only type of rogue that's really done anything is <insert specific cabal> rogues, because it removes one of their most glaring weaknesses, the fact that they're basically impotent once outlawed anywhere. It makes them giant one-trick ponies, though. I can't think of any other cabal/class that has been so closely linked aside from maybe Warlock/<insert other cabal>.

TL;DR it's hard to balance rogues, because actually getting hit with backstab/circlestab does in fact hurt like hell, but how often will you ever get hit with them? And it's also p.much all they have in their kit. The scroll skill is there, but IMO not terribly effective on them.

Divert would definitely be a good idea for them, IMO. Evade would be nice. Both would, IMO, be a great start to making a rogue more than just a liability in PvE. Don't have time to worry about rogue in your group dying when literally everyone else who is being hit by fireballs/breath/etc is probably more important.