Shattered Kingdoms

It would help some, but it's a bit mistargeted, IMO. Assuming the penality applies to heavy armor, the only Fist classes this affects are mercs and paladins. I don't see anyone complaining about elven paladins, but about giants and griffons in a wide variety of classes.

A heavy armor restriction is fine for the Fist's defensive skill. But I think at least one of the core offensive skills needs a penalty for low int or wis. There just has to be a cost for going physical and dumb, or that build will dominate the cabal. You can justify it as a lack of mental discipline.

Again, I have no problems with the scouts and bards and shaman. They hit hard with their fists sure, but a giant/griffon hit extremely hard. A griffon shaman and a giant merc are already shown to be extremely proficent in playerkilling without even the need for any equipment.

I just feel it is *very* out of place with the whole concept. No one should get so many attacks and play a strong melee character. The stacking is too much. Griffon claws also make this pretty brutal.

If I had to suggest a fix, I would either limit the classes that can be a part of the cabal (which I would rather not) or make the effects of the martial arts lesser for those who are traditional melee classes (preferred).

Another thing is that the Fist of the White Swan have been acting very aggressive lately, which may be do in part to a lot of 'hardcore' player killers who run about being Hammer of Light's in disguise due to the fist skill set. Perhaps it is a personal observation and only that.

I just can not see a mercenary or a swashbuckler or even a rogue disciplining themselves to do martial arts. I guess maybe I have a different vision of what a monk is.

There's an easier fix. Change the base number of attacks for the FIST "martial arts" skill from three to two, and make it so haste does not affect said skill.

Then you'd end up with FIST getting a base of two attacks, which would increase to four when they used another of their cabal skills. Since "martial arts" would not benefit from haste, the maximum number of attacks per round would be four, which is the same as a mercenary using a specialized weapon (in most cases).

Problem solved.

Or, you bash the fistor before they type the command to use said cabal kills.

The most recent version of haste is nicely integrated with the weapon speed system, so I'd hate to start putting in special-case restrictions again. However what that brings to my attention is that fist ability in question is NOT using the speed system. Haste used to double attacks but that made it broken. Now it's better. This fist ability seems to be in the same category. Wouldn't it be better to bring it into line and instead of doubling, it gives a speed boost that would guarantee 2 extra attacks per round (with fists)?

PS. Whether you have brawling and/or wild fighting is irrelevant for Fist members. If you fight bare handed, you use the fist fighting style which uses alternate calculations for number of attacks.

Just change the effects of speeding fists or whatever its called. It's basically just old haste for fist skills. Ideally you can have just the martial arts skill that gives them punches to work like wild fighting, save they don't get the affects of fury, but they can still haste for an additional unarmed attack, granting them four punches a round.

So what's the benefit? They get the unarmed blocking skill that barbarians do not get to enjoy.

Well, okay, if I understand you correctly, you are considering changing the FIST cabal skill that doubles unarmed/martial arts attacks to simply giving two extra attacks?

If "martial arts" is giving three base attacks, and the other ability would add two more (instead of doubling), you'd have five attacks per round. How many more, if any, would haste give?

If you stay in the fix to six attack range, after all buffs and adjustments, it'd probably be balance even for warrior types. I mean, in order to get those extra attacks, you can't be wielding a polearm and therefore lose the ability to hit beyond the first rank.

Yeah, that is probably the better solution.

The cabal is finally up to par for the CRS system and everyone is now crying they are broke?

If by up to par you mean overpowered, then yes, it is up to par.

Actually. If you work it right, no more than three fists are needed to cabal raid. I'd be willing to run tests to prove this if I wasn't so concerned with the more important half of the game, RP. *shrugs*